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Posted by daniel 
January 17, 2009 05:33PM
Hello everyone. I am back safely from Venezuela and sometime in the next week (once I have all of my photos hosted online) I will make a nice post about my trip with my favorite pictures. Until then, I have some other news. As some of you may remember, I have an e36 5-lug setup on my e30. After doing a lot of wheel searching, I got a bit disappointed because I really wanted 16 inch wheels, not 17's, and ALL e36 wheels that are 8 inches or wider are 17's. The issue here is that the e36 setup requires an offset of at least ET35 in order to avoid rubbing issues with the fenders, so I thought many other BMW wheels were out of the question. My car isn't super low, though, and after finding out that the center bore of the e36 is the same as every 5x120 BMW except for the SUVs and the e39, I did some more searching and decided to take a shot at some 16x8 ET23 Style 5's. The offset is very low, but as I mentioned before, my car is at a reasonable height (compared to some e30s). I don't really have money to be buying new rimzzz, but I got these Style 5's for $250 (ended up costing $130 to dismount/mount/balance the tires with new stems...ouch). I think I can sell the rare MOMOs for $380 and break even.

Here are some pictures (taken this morning) of the MOMO Mirage wheels I had before. 16x7.5 ET35:


you can see that ET35 is even already a bit low:

not this morning:


and the new wheels (which came from an e38 740i, by the way):







I would LOVE to kill that fender gap in the front, but the fact of the matter is I still scrape that front lip every once in a while, and I'd rather have a car that can go over speed bumps than one that gets stuck on them. I think the rear looks pretty good right now and it surprisingly isn't rubbing, but I might even raise it a bit to make the fender gaps more even. Maybe at the E30 picnic in June I will slam the front or something. Tires are 225/40ZR16 Toyo T1R. Slightly undersized, but I had them on another set of wheels that I bought a year ago, so I am using them before going to a 245/whateverZR16.

Thanks for looking!

PS- i LOVE the way that rear tire is tucked in right inside the fender. mmm mmm mmmm!


January 17, 2009 07:37PM
Sweet!
January 17, 2009 07:51PM
Nice stance and good looking wheels but you gotta do something with the paint man!
January 18, 2009 12:14AM
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Archeo-peteriX
Nice stance and good looking wheels but you gotta do something with the paint man!

yes the paint is terrible. the car was keyed by someone and actually says FUCK ME in the RR quarter panel. Photographs really bring out the terrible paint. it doesnt look as bad in person. It is worst on the hood and the roof (the spoiler is bad too). I could easily/cheaply paint the hood black and the spoiler black, but the roof is another issue. Right now mechanicals are the priority though, so no money towards a paint job. There is also a big dent in the passenger door, which would probably be taken care of easiest with a new lachsilber door. With all that said, the car has been way more reliable and cheaper than any other e30 i have had, so i am quite pleased with my risky purchase over the summer.

thanks for the complements.


January 18, 2009 08:17AM
Nice. A definite improvement over the old wheels!

Wheel selection is why, when/if I get around to my own S52 conversion, I intend to keep the 4-lug E30 setup. I love my Ronal LS wheels, and have no desire for any wheel larger than 15". Plus, I already have the steelies with Blizzaks for ice racing.

I'm glad you are enjoying your new car, even if it does say "F-You" on it. thumbs down

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT
January 18, 2009 11:40AM
Why did you go for Z-rated tyres? You don't need those and could mean a real difference in the price.
The MOMO's weren't bad for aftermarket wheels but these look SO much better.
January 18, 2009 12:01PM
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Cab Treadway
Nice. A definite improvement over the old wheels!

Wheel selection is why, when/if I get around to my own S52 conversion, I intend to keep the 4-lug E30 setup. I love my Ronal LS wheels, and have no desire for any wheel larger than 15". Plus, I already have the steelies with Blizzaks for ice racing.

I'm glad you are enjoying your new car, even if it does say "F-You" on it. thumbs down

Well, having bought the car with the 5-lug already done, I didn't really have much choice. It's a sacrifice I am willing to make though since it also means I have an e36 M3 brake setup in the front. One downside to that is the smallest wheel I can put on the car is a 16". I wouldn't mind having 15x7.5 or 16x7.5 wheels, but the 225 tread width is somewhat of a limiter here. Even in warm weather its extremely easy to spin the tires with all the power the car has. One reason I got the 16x8's is so I could put 245's on it.


January 18, 2009 12:07PM
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Michiel 318iS
Why did you go for Z-rated tyres? You don't need those and could mean a real difference in the price.
The MOMO's weren't bad for aftermarket wheels but these look SO much better.

I have Z-rated tires (technically W, but it falls into the Z category) because over a year ago I bought 4 wheels with those four tires. To save myself some money, I put the tires on my current wheels and sold the wheels without tires. Also, I do not mind the extra grip with an S52 under the hood. So technically I didn't buy the tires (at least not anytime recently). Hopefully these last a while, but the next set of tires I want to buy are 245/40ZR16.

I agree, the MOMOs aren't totally bad, but they were out of place and also not in very good condition.


January 18, 2009 12:10PM
ha! i just did a search for 245/40-16 tires and they don't appear to exist. Oh well, I have quite some time before I need new tires anyway.


January 18, 2009 02:57PM
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daniel
Well, having bought the car with the 5-lug already done, I didn't really have much choice.

Agreed, I wasn't trying to say the 4-lug was necessarily preferred, just saying that when I ever find the money to do this conversion, I'm happy with what I have as far as wheels go. My wheels are 15x7.5, so I may be able to put enough width on there, if I run into the same problem you have. Or maybe at that point I'll decide that the E30 wheel setup is holding it back, and then I'll do the wheel conversion. Who knows. It's all a dream at this point anyway.

I've never felt any problem with the E30 brakes, and while yes, there's a lot more power from the S52, the car doesn't really weigh all that much more, so I would be willing to give the stock brakes a chance before deciding they need to be upgraded.

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT
January 18, 2009 04:18PM
You should go for 245/35ZR16 if you want to keep about the same circumference (or total tyre height).

If you go for 245/40ZR16, you'll have about stock circumference (compared to 205/55R15), but it might rub in your wheelarches.
January 18, 2009 04:57PM
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Cab Treadway
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daniel
....

I've never felt any problem with the E30 brakes, and while yes, there's a lot more power from the S52, the car doesn't really weigh all that much more, so I would be willing to give the stock brakes a chance before deciding they need to be upgraded.

I've never understood the contrary logic used to justify bigger brakes on a car just because it has more hp. If the weight of the care is basically unchanged, then the amount of braking power needed to stop the car from any speed will be the same irrespective of what the power is.

The only time bigger brakes might be an advantage is n track racing where grippy tires, hard braking and frequent braking are needed. For street use or the occasional auto-x, I doubt there is any advantage to be had.
January 18, 2009 05:00PM
I wonder if we need to revisit that old tire 'patch area' thing again?

Or is this just about the macho look factor of the tires?
January 18, 2009 06:29PM
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Archeo-peteriX
I've never understood the contrary logic used to justify bigger brakes on a car just because it has more hp. If the weight of the care is basically unchanged, then the amount of braking power needed to stop the car from any speed will be the same irrespective of what the power is.
Yes, but presumably with more power the speeds attained will be higher.

Quote

The only time bigger brakes might be an advantage is n track racing where grippy tires, hard braking and frequent braking are needed. For street use or the occasional auto-x, I doubt there is any advantage to be had.
I agree. Autocross driving, and especially street driving, is not hard on brakes. Track driving is, but even then it depends on the track, mainly in the number of hard braking zones and the amount of cooling-down stretches between the braking zones. It also depends on the car. My Mazda Miata will run laps perfectly happily all day long on any track, with its small stock brakes (but race pads). Other cars, like the Nissan 350Z for example, have stock brakes that are simply too small to stand up to track use. Any 350Z that spends much time on the track will need bigger brakes.

I should know about how E30 brakes fare, but I don't.

__________
Dave
'91 325iX
January 18, 2009 08:41PM
LOOKS SWEEET!
rkj
January 18, 2009 11:13PM
Sweet indeed smiling bouncing smiley nice choice Daniel thumbs up
January 19, 2009 12:47AM
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Archeo-peteriX
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Cab Treadway
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daniel
....

I've never felt any problem with the E30 brakes, and while yes, there's a lot more power from the S52, the car doesn't really weigh all that much more, so I would be willing to give the stock brakes a chance before deciding they need to be upgraded.

I've never understood the contrary logic used to justify bigger brakes on a car just because it has more hp. If the weight of the care is basically unchanged, then the amount of braking power needed to stop the car from any speed will be the same irrespective of what the power is.

The only time bigger brakes might be an advantage is n track racing where grippy tires, hard braking and frequent braking are needed. For street use or the occasional auto-x, I doubt there is any advantage to be had.

big brakes look cool, too.


January 19, 2009 12:47AM
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
I wonder if we need to revisit that old tire 'patch area' thing again?

Or is this just about the macho look factor of the tires?

yes fatter tires look cooler. why do they make tires of different width if the width doesnt make a difference?


January 19, 2009 12:49AM
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JUMPNYC
LOOKS SWEEET!

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rkj
Sweet indeed smiling bouncing smiley nice choice Daniel thumbs up

thanks guys smileys with beer


January 19, 2009 07:11AM
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Archeo-peteriX
I've never understood the contrary logic used to justify bigger brakes on a car just because it has more hp. If the weight of the care is basically unchanged, then the amount of braking power needed to stop the car from any speed will be the same irrespective of what the power is.

The only time bigger brakes might be an advantage is n track racing where grippy tires, hard braking and frequent braking are needed. For street use or the occasional auto-x, I doubt there is any advantage to be had.

I completely agree. "They" always say that with more power you need more brakes, but I feel the same as you, especially for the type of driving that I would be doing.

For a lot of track driving, you definitely do need to consider your brakes, because with more power, you'll be going faster at most points on the track, so the required braking force will be higher, which cooks your brakes faster and leads to fading if you don't have the right setup. But for the driving I like to do, which is street and autoX, I don't have a need for big brakes. Daniel is right, though, they do look cool.

Anyway, as I figure it, when I finish school and start working on the E30 project, there are several big brake kits available, but I will not be doing one of those with the project. I figure it's not needed, plus it's the kind of project that can be done relatively easily later on down the road, there isn't a significant advantage to doing that when the car is completely apart like it will be doing an engine swap.

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT
January 19, 2009 07:17AM
Quote
daniel
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
I wonder if we need to revisit that old tire 'patch area' thing again?

Or is this just about the macho look factor of the tires?

yes fatter tires look cooler. why do they make tires of different width if the width doesnt make a difference?

Well, assuming the same weight of the car and the same tire pressures, it does change the shape of your contact patch, from long and narrow to shorter and wider. The wider patch gives you different performance in terms of lateral grip, but if you want "more" contact patch, you need to lower the tire pressures. I'm not sure if it's harder to spin tires with a wider patch; I don't understand why it would be, since the same area of road is contacted by the tires.

When you are under hard acceleration and have significant weight transfer to the rear, it may be easier for a wider tire to deform enough to account for the increased weight. A narrower tire would have to "compress" itself farther out of round to increase the patch than a wider tire would. That's just a guess, though.

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT
January 19, 2009 10:00AM
Quote
daniel
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
Quote
Cab Treadway
Quote
daniel
....

I've never felt any problem with the E30 brakes, and while yes, there's a lot more power from the S52, the car doesn't really weigh all that much more, so I would be willing to give the stock brakes a chance before deciding they need to be upgraded.

I've never understood the contrary logic used to justify bigger brakes on a car just because it has more hp. If the weight of the care is basically unchanged, then the amount of braking power needed to stop the car from any speed will be the same irrespective of what the power is.

The only time bigger brakes might be an advantage is n track racing where grippy tires, hard braking and frequent braking are needed. For street use or the occasional auto-x, I doubt there is any advantage to be had.

big brakes look cool, too.

Cool and $1.50 worth of flashy decals will make the car look like it has 20 extra hp to the uninitiated grinning smiley
January 19, 2009 10:07AM
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Archeo-peteriX
Quote
daniel
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
Quote
Cab Treadway
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daniel
....

I've never felt any problem with the E30 brakes, and while yes, there's a lot more power from the S52, the car doesn't really weigh all that much more, so I would be willing to give the stock brakes a chance before deciding they need to be upgraded.

I've never understood the contrary logic used to justify bigger brakes on a car just because it has more hp. If the weight of the care is basically unchanged, then the amount of braking power needed to stop the car from any speed will be the same irrespective of what the power is.

The only time bigger brakes might be an advantage is n track racing where grippy tires, hard braking and frequent braking are needed. For street use or the occasional auto-x, I doubt there is any advantage to be had.

big brakes look cool, too.

Cool and $1.50 worth of flashy decals will make the car look like it has 20 extra hp to the uninitiated grinning smiley

You guys never remember the important stuff...

Don't forget the yellow differential! That makes all the difference!!!!

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT

January 19, 2009 10:18AM
I can buy into the 'cool' factor; after all it's part of what attracts us to the E30 smileys with beer
January 19, 2009 10:20AM
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Cab Treadway
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Archeo-peteriX
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daniel
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Archeo-peteriX
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Cab Treadway
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daniel
....

I've never felt any problem with the E30 brakes, and while yes, there's a lot more power from the S52, the car doesn't really weigh all that much more, so I would be willing to give the stock brakes a chance before deciding they need to be upgraded.

I've never understood the contrary logic used to justify bigger brakes on a car just because it has more hp. If the weight of the care is basically unchanged, then the amount of braking power needed to stop the car from any speed will be the same irrespective of what the power is.

The only time bigger brakes might be an advantage is n track racing where grippy tires, hard braking and frequent braking are needed. For street use or the occasional auto-x, I doubt there is any advantage to be had.

big brakes look cool, too.

Cool and $1.50 worth of flashy decals will make the car look like it has 20 extra hp to the uninitiated grinning smiley

You guys never remember the important stuff...

Don't forget the yellow differential! That makes all the difference!!!!

I still think you didn't give the plaid one a good enough try out smiling bouncing smiley
January 19, 2009 10:22AM
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daniel
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
I wonder if we need to revisit that old tire 'patch area' thing again?

Or is this just about the macho look factor of the tires?

yes fatter tires look cooler. why do they make tires of different width if the width doesnt make a difference?

So people will think they're better. Bigger is always better winking smiley
January 19, 2009 10:34AM
Quote
Cab Treadway
Quote
daniel
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
I wonder if we need to revisit that old tire 'patch area' thing again?

Or is this just about the macho look factor of the tires?

yes fatter tires look cooler. why do they make tires of different width if the width doesnt make a difference?

Well, assuming the same weight of the car and the same tire pressures, it does change the shape of your contact patch, from long and narrow to shorter and wider. The wider patch gives you different performance in terms of lateral grip, but if you want "more" contact patch, you need to lower the tire pressures. I'm not sure if it's harder to spin tires with a wider patch; I don't understand why it would be, since the same area of road is contacted by the tires.

When you are under hard acceleration and have significant weight transfer to the rear, it may be easier for a wider tire to deform enough to account for the increased weight. A narrower tire would have to "compress" itself farther out of round to increase the patch than a wider tire would. That's just a guess, though.

I think some of the misconception about wide tires and grip comes from seeing those huge tires on dragsters. Most people don't realize that those tires are so wise because of what happens when the power is applied. On the dragster, the tires are almost immediately spun up to maximum speed and they become donut shaped with the contact patch getting reduced to a fraction of what it was when the tire was resting.

On a street car, the tires are designed to maintain the same patch size and shape as much as possible so that tire life and handling are optimized. I doubt there is much difference, if any between the wide and narrow tires under acceleration as far as patch size is concerned.

Differences in tire construction would have a greater affect; the number and composition of belts used, side wall stiffness and perhaps tread pattern.

Either way, the coolness factor is there and a wide surefooted stance has the psychological affect of making the care seem faster or better handling.
January 19, 2009 11:09AM
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Archeo-peteriX
I think some of the misconception about wide tires and grip comes from seeing those huge tires on dragsters.
Maybe, but huge tires win the trophies in autocross, too. My track/autocross car is a Mazda Miata. Until a few years ago, the hot tire to have in CSP was either a 225 Hoosier or 215 Kumho V710. Both of those are really fat on a Miata. Then, a couple years ago, Hoosier came out with a monster 275/35-15 in their A6 autocross tire. People tried them on their Miatas, and guess what? They were faster. Now it's nearly impossible to win at the national level unless you're on 275s. IOW, we haven't yet reached the limit of fatness -- fatter is always faster.

On the track, it's a different story. At high speeds, tires that are too fat can slow you down if you don't have the power to drive them. At stock power levels, the fastest tires for my Miata are 205s. Cars with forced induction are faster on 225s. 500 HP Vettes need 315s to put the power down, or else they just spin their wheels at every turn.

Sorry I don't have comparable data for track E30s, but I'm sure the phenomenon still holds.

__________
Dave
'91 325iX
January 19, 2009 12:05PM
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
On a street car, the tires are designed to maintain the same patch size and shape as much as possible so that tire life and handling are optimized. I doubt there is much difference, if any between the wide and narrow tires under acceleration as far as patch size is concerned.

There may not be a huge difference, but I don't think the entire reason behind why high performance cars have wide tires is the cool factor.

Quote

Differences in tire construction would have a greater affect; the number and composition of belts used, side wall stiffness and perhaps tread pattern.

That was my idea, if the side wall stiffness is similar from the narrow and wider tires, then each tire will be allowed to compress a little bit, forming the contact patch. As the narrower tire gets more weight on it, it still can only compress so much without damage, so the tire doesn't handle the increased load as well. A wider tire can compress (flatten) the same amount, and will allow a larger patch because of the increased width. I have no data to back this up, just a guess on how the physics might work.

Quote

Either way, the coolness factor is there and a wide surefooted stance has the psychological affect of making the care seem faster or better handling.

There is definitely a handling benefit, because the wider tire with the shorter/wider contact patch has greater lateral grip, so it grips better under hard cornering without rolling over. The misconception is when people stuff huge tires in there thinking they're getting a larger contact patch when they're not. But it does help in some aspects of performance, which is why wider (and stickier) tires help in autoX, where top speed is not high, but lateral grip must be optimized.

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT
January 19, 2009 12:34PM
Quote
Dave_G
we haven't yet reached the limit of fatness -- fatter is always faster.
There is a limit though...


3-2-1-Go! Drop the clutch, and bang. Sheared all the wheel studs and both rear wheels took off without the car.
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