rkj
November 25, 2011 02:07PM
What ever you think these people are doing you have to respect their cause. If I wasn't such an old fart I'd be there, at least for a visit....
November 25, 2011 07:51PM
It would be nice if they had a coherent thought about why they are there. They want jobs to come from somewhere, but I do not know of anyone who works for a poor person. The protesters do not seem to understand that government does not create goods or jobs. Government only consumes by paying someone to regulate the rest of us and make our lives more difficult. Can you imagine if the protesters all got government jobs and started making the economy over to suit themselves?

Makes a taxpayer like myself wonder if I should be getting a hand out instead of having to get my kiester out of bed every morning and trundle off to work. My employer must think I am making them more money than they pay me or they would not keep me on the payroll. Good thing I own some stock in the company...oh, wait...that would mean I am working for myself. Dag nab it, now how is that supposed to work...I am not rich. I can't tell if the occupiers would love me or hate me.

Bob in Everett
rkj
November 26, 2011 03:18PM
The interesting (and beautiful) thing about this movement is that there isn't a set demand list; I think the message is govern for the majority- the bastards on wall street are still pulling the same shit, basically as before.

Senators and congressmen have insider tips for the stock market (among other money institutions), and that's just wrong. There has to be some what an even playing field for the folks, Not just the rich and corporations!

I can't believe it's taken this long for people (normal-regular people) to rise up :cloud: I know I'm just old war horse kickin the stall but if I were younger..... and don't get me started on health care, what a travesty!

I think, at this point, it's going to take an uprising to create change. These occupy people are already starting to effect things in the world. Their noises are being felt the world over- Good For Them thumbs up
November 26, 2011 04:01PM
The problem is that without a clearly defined goal; nothing will ever be achieved sad smiley

Unfortunately, most of the western world is beyond recovery and those who are in power are not going to give up anything without a fight. Just look at the middle east; dictator after life time president after crooked leader has fallen to the people...after some very bloody battles.

Don't be looking for any of the G8 leaders to be hunted down and dragged into the streets like Hussein, Gadhafi and others.

The way to make change is from within the system. The 'Tea Party' had part of it right but it had all the wrong people in it for the wrong reasons.
To get back to 'grass roots' and the intent of the constitution as written by it's authors; changes have to come by way of education and dedication while resisting the lobbyists and special interest groups and above all the Federal Reserve.

Rioting in the streets does little but get people arrested or even killed; the system survives and goes on.

In order to affect change; we will all have to give something up. A good place to start is by not buying things on credit; using cash for all purchases(real estate excluded of course) and keeping what we have for longer. All of this will go a long way towards choking off the strangle hold the Fed has over our lives.

I understand that unemployed people have a lot of time on their hands and protesting may seem like a good thing to do but it won't provide them with jobs; even if they wanted one. Their time would be better spent taking training or upgrading their educations so that they are more employable.

A much better aproach to protesting and one that is a better use of time is writing to your government representatives. It frees you up to pursue that new job; causes no financial burden to tax payers like protests and marches do(extra policing and cleanup of public places)...and it does get the attention of those people who can make changes happen.

Nobody owes us a living and none of us are entitled to anything we don't work for.
rkj
November 26, 2011 04:43PM
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
The problem is that without a clearly defined goal; nothing will ever be achieved sad smiley

Unfortunately, most of the western world is beyond recovery and those who are in power are not going to give up anything without a fight. Just look at the middle east; dictator after life time president after crooked leader has fallen to the people...after some very bloody battles.

Don't be looking for any of the G8 leaders to be hunted down and dragged into the streets like Hussein, Gadhafi and others.

The way to make change is from within the system. The 'Tea Party' had part of it right but it had all the wrong people in it for the wrong reasons.
To get back to 'grass roots' and the intent of the constitution as written by it's authors; changes have to come by way of education and dedication while resisting the lobbyists and special interest groups and above all the Federal Reserve.

Rioting in the streets does little but get people arrested or even killed; the system survives and goes on.

In order to affect change; we will all have to give something up. A good place to start is by not buying things on credit; using cash for all purchases(real estate excluded of course) and keeping what we have for longer. All of this will go a long way towards choking off the strangle hold the Fed has over our lives.

I understand that unemployed people have a lot of time on their hands and protesting may seem like a good thing to do but it won't provide them with jobs; even if they wanted one. Their time would be better spent taking training or upgrading their educations so that they are more employable.

A much better aproach to protesting and one that is a better use of time is writing to your government representatives. It frees you up to pursue that new job; causes no financial burden to tax payers like protests and marches do(extra policing and cleanup of public places)...and it does get the attention of those people who can make changes happen.

Nobody owes us a living and none of us are entitled to anything we don't work for.

Understood Peter. .......... but I still say.... :censored: REVOLUTION
November 26, 2011 06:38PM
A little online investigation indicates a huge connection with the establishment via George Soros sponsored groups providing the "leadership" of these ersatz demonstrations. Some of the personalities involved also seem to be connected to Obama's posse. It could be a sort of fifth column in a re-election campaign. Hard to tell.

[www.wnd.com]

Bob in Everett
November 26, 2011 07:18PM
Quote
Bob in Everett
A little online investigation indicates a huge connection with the establishment via George Soros sponsored groups providing the "leadership" of these ersatz demonstrations. Some of the personalities involved also seem to be connected to Obama's posse. It could be a sort of fifth column in a re-election campaign. Hard to tell.

[www.wnd.com]

It wouldn't surprise me at all thumbs down
November 26, 2011 07:20PM
Ok, let's have a revolution...but what is our specific goal?
November 26, 2011 08:37PM
A book I read several years ago, "The People's Pottage" concluded that the revolution was complete in 1932 with the election of FDR. All the stuff that has happened since seems to confirm it. The occupy crowd seems to want a 360 degree revolution. It does not seem to want to reverse the growth of government.

Bob in Everett
November 26, 2011 09:22PM
Quote
Bob in Everett
A book I read several years ago, "The People's Pottage" concluded that the revolution was complete in 1932 with the election of FDR. All the stuff that has happened since seems to confirm it. The occupy crowd seems to want a 360 degree revolution. It does not seem to want to reverse the growth of government.

99% of the 'occupy crowd' have no clue what they want...they are just sheep being herded by a few special interest groups sad smiley
rkj
November 26, 2011 10:08PM
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
Quote
Bob in Everett
A book I read several years ago, "The People's Pottage" concluded that the revolution was complete in 1932 with the election of FDR. All the stuff that has happened since seems to confirm it. The occupy crowd seems to want a 360 degree revolution. It does not seem to want to reverse the growth of government.

99% of the 'occupy crowd' have no clue what they want...they are just sheep being herded by a few special interest groups sad smiley

I don't believe that's true, but I'll try to put something in words soon.
November 26, 2011 10:30PM
Quote
rkj
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
Quote
Bob in Everett
A book I read several years ago, "The People's Pottage" concluded that the revolution was complete in 1932 with the election of FDR. All the stuff that has happened since seems to confirm it. The occupy crowd seems to want a 360 degree revolution. It does not seem to want to reverse the growth of government.

99% of the 'occupy crowd' have no clue what they want...they are just sheep being herded by a few special interest groups sad smiley

I don't believe that's true, but I'll try to put something in words soon.

That was just a play on the 99%/1% logo some of them are using.
But, I am certain that a large majority of them don't really have a clear idea of why they were there. Television interviews with participants and even some organizers has demonstrated that there is no real cohesive agenda nor formalized goals :rolleyes:
November 28, 2011 05:46AM
Quote
rkj
What ever you think these people are doing you have to respect their cause. If I wasn't such an old fart I'd be there, at least for a visit....

You are never too old for this, Rick!
Moire on this latter, after work...
:stickpoke:
November 28, 2011 07:46AM
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
The problem is that without a clearly defined goal; nothing will ever be achieved sad smiley
Perhaps people will wake up and discuss whats really going on?

Quote
Archeo-peteriX
The way to make change is from within the system...
Perhaps the "system" is way too corrupted and rotten. Can any of your representative get your concerns through, on top of the powerfull lobbys?
Perhaps a way to remind them to listen to the people is the possibility (even remote) of be dragged out of the palace into the streets and killed by the mobb.

Quote
Archeo-peteriX
Nobody owes us a living and none of us are entitled to anything we don't work for.
Very true. Now let's put it the other way arround: do we owe a living to the government (not to mention ex-politicians, lobbysts etc)? Are we entitled to ask public services back in return for our taxes?
Who said the finantial gorups had to own 99% of everything under the Sun?

Over here in Europe, the Euro is under attack by the "malrkets", the same who were bailed out in 2008 to avoid going banckrupt.
I read a package of 600.000 million Euro is being prepared to "help" Italy.
First, look at the number: dividing by the 60 million Italians, it would be 10000Euro/each, but that's not being done like that.
Italian government will have this amount for a mear 4% tax, to be paid back over several years (from the taxpayers money) totaling perhaps 1 000 000 million Euro.
Where is this money coming from? Money doesn't exist, it is made in FMI, FED, CEB, etc and lent to banks. Those banks (owned by their shareholders) will give loans to governments, smaller banks, corporations, etc.
To repay money that was made out of nothing, people will have to work for their living plus pay the taxes, eventually selling estate to pay debts and keep living.
This is the bottom line, for a long time all sort of loans had been arranged between our governments and banks, now the banks cut the ratings and raise the interest to unbearable values forcing people and countries to sell property to pay a huge debt.

The "austerity" strategy, saving more, consuming less, etc. will make the problem bigger cause the economy to shrink, businesses will close (unemployment), and less taxes will be collected leaving again worst defficit to require new loans and so on in a spiral that will lead to something real bad.
If you sell a farm to put the money in the bank, you traded real estate for a figure in a computer, and if the bank goes bankrupt or the currency depreciates, you end up with NOTHING! And that is the strategy unfolding before our eyes, banks will end up owning everything in exchange for nothing!
Something must be done about it, and we are in too deep in debt to switch to buy everything with cash anytime soon.
The story tells us the economy never improved with austerity measures.
There's not an easy way out of this. hot smiley
November 28, 2011 08:26AM
Quote
Archeo-peteriX

That was just a play on the 99%/1% logo some of them are using.
But, I am certain that a large majority of them don't really have a clear idea of why they were there. Television interviews with participants and even some organizers has demonstrated that there is no real cohesive agenda nor formalized goals :rolleyes:

When you have 99% of a population, several factions are united among them, and division will surface when decisions have to be made.
But then again, the discussion of the problems will eventually lead to something.
Perhaps we (all of us) for a long time believed our elected governments were there for us, and in the end they were there to serve big corporations, who financed their campaigns, lunches and parties and whatever.
There is no way to ignore something is brewing, and we can only be burdened by a few to some point.
rkj
November 28, 2011 11:49AM
Quote
Jose Pinto
Quote
Archeo-peteriX

That was just a play on the 99%/1% logo some of them are using.
But, I am certain that a large majority of them don't really have a clear idea of why they were there. Television interviews with participants and even some organizers has demonstrated that there is no real cohesive agenda nor formalized goals :rolleyes:

When you have 99% of a population, several factions are united among them, and division will surface when decisions have to be made.
But then again, the discussion of the problems will eventually lead to something.
Perhaps we (all of us) for a long time believed our elected governments were there for us, and in the end they were there to serve big corporations, who financed their campaigns, lunches and parties and whatever.
There is no way to ignore something is brewing, and we can only be burdened by a few to some point.

Now that's more like it. Jose Pinto, you're a smart man that can see things have to change, and it doesn't seem like they're going to from the inside out. Like you say, if these liars in the government have a suspicion they might be dealt with on the street things might take another turn... It's not just the united states that have issues (as you've pointed out), things have to change pretty much world wide. The statuesque sucks and is insulting, especially for people now a days.

One of the wonderful things about Occupy, is that it has no fixed goals!

It's based on one thing........ HOPE....... that can send a powerful message to governments with their heads up their ass'

I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime, but it sure is a good message, and refreshing as hell!

Of all the things I've seen in my life, hope has been one of the biggest movers of people, hopefully it will continue and we'll see better from the people who are supposed to be looking out for us period!

as a veteran I get really steamed about all this crap sad smiley
November 28, 2011 12:58PM
Quote
rkj

Now that's more like it. Jose Pinto, you're a smart man that can see things have to change, and it doesn't seem like they're going to from the inside out. Like you say, if these liars in the government have a suspicion they might be dealt with on the street things might take another turn... It's not just the united states that have issues (as you've pointed out), things have to change pretty much world wide. The statuesque sucks and is insulting, especially for people now a days.

One of the wonderful things about Occupy, is that it has no fixed goals!

It's based on one thing........ HOPE....... that can send a powerful message to governments with their heads up their ass'

I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime, but it sure is a good message, and refreshing as hell!

Of all the things I've seen in my life, hope has been one of the biggest movers of people, hopefully it will continue and we'll see better from the people who are supposed to be looking out for us period!

as a veteran I get really steamed about all this crap sad smiley

Iam looking at this from a European point of view.
In France, the "May 68" had no goals, but it sure rocked things a bit!
It contributed to erode the old Iberic dictators at least...
OTH, having no fixed goals, it can't fail!

From a demonstration somewhere in Europe, "No job, no house, no fear"
:stickpoke:

If the younger generation feels trapped with no hope in future, things may turn real ugly.
What's the point in asking the older to retire at older age, when the young can't find jobs?!
Our so called "western civilization" is under great pressure, and our children will probably have worse lifes than we and our parents had. That's an horrible legacy to pass on to them. We can't compete with "emerging economies" like India and China, and we have to refuse to be levelled to their life standard, instead of the other way arround.
November 28, 2011 08:26PM
With no goals; nothing can be achieved.

Whether from the inside or the outside; there has to be goals to aim for otherwise it is a complete and utter waste of everyones time and money.

No goal; nothing achieved...failure. It really can't get any simpler than that.
November 29, 2011 07:05AM
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
With no goals; nothing can be achieved.

Whether from the inside or the outside; there has to be goals to aim for otherwise it is a complete and utter waste of everyones time and money.

No goal; nothing achieved...failure. It really can't get any simpler than that.

Something may be achieved, we don't know what yet.
It makes it dificult to keep a "scoreboard" but it makes everything more interesting!

hot smiley
November 29, 2011 09:18AM
Quote
Jose Pinto
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
With no goals; nothing can be achieved.

Whether from the inside or the outside; there has to be goals to aim for otherwise it is a complete and utter waste of everyones time and money.

No goal; nothing achieved...failure. It really can't get any simpler than that.

Something may be achieved, we don't know what yet.
It makes it dificult to keep a "scoreboard" but it makes everything more interesting!

hot smiley

I could stand in the back yard and bang my head against the cherry tree...something may be achieved; I have a good idea what :lol:
November 29, 2011 10:10AM
Quote
Archeo-peteriX

I could stand in the back yard and bang my head against the cherry tree...something may be achieved; I have a good idea what :lol:

You could, but you're smarter than that.
Some guy (Mohamed Bouazizi) in Tunisia set himself on fire on the parliament, and several dictator were overthrown as a consequence of events (the Arab Spring)...
He personally died, but achieved much more than he expected to.
rkj
November 29, 2011 12:54PM
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
With no goals; nothing can be achieved.

Whether from the inside or the outside; there has to be goals to aim for otherwise it is a complete and utter waste of everyones time and money.

No goal; nothing achieved...failure. It really can't get any simpler than that.

I have a different perspective on this one Peter. The message is clear, not just in NYC either... This is another kind of tea party; a good kind!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2011 12:54PM by rkj.
November 29, 2011 07:40PM
I think the original goal was to hold Wall St. and the banking industry responsible for the financial meltdown. Many innocent (people who up to that point had led fiscally responsible lives) got caught in the vortex and found themselves unemployed and in the streets when they were forclosed on. Meanwhile, Wall St. and Main St. continued to earn large salaries and nice bonues (the so called 1%).

I am not sure other than writing new laws which close up loopholes that Wall St. and the banking industry indulged in what else can be done. As an aside, the banking industry merely made loans after the feds loosened up loan requirements and encouraged the banks to loan money as a means of stimulating the economy by allowing everyone to buy a home. Not to judge anyone, but when I bought my first house, the bank wanted to know what I had for dinner on Wed. nights and how many servings. They wanted to know if I was capable of servicing the debt I was applying for. Signature only loans, no vetting? Exactly how did they think this would end up? Of course, the banks didn't care, again, they were encouraged by the Fed and loans are packaged and sold of a week after they were funded. Guess who bought this packages? Wall St. They became investment vehicles. The idea being that very few loans would end up in forclosure, but no one saw the storm coming.

The rest is history.

alan
November 30, 2011 12:16AM
Jose,
I think you have understood the whole principle of world finance these days. The whole thing is based on debt. The bank creates the money out of nothing and loans it to us. You are right about that.

Bob in Everett
November 30, 2011 12:37AM
Here is a link to a commentator who explains where some of the 1% came from.

[www.wnd.com]

At least one way to look at it.

Bob in Everett
November 30, 2011 05:15AM
Quote
alanrw
I think the original goal was to hold Wall St. and the banking industry responsible for the financial meltdown. Many innocent (people who up to that point had led fiscally responsible lives) got caught in the vortex and found themselves unemployed and in the streets when they were forclosed on. Meanwhile, Wall St. and Main St. continued to earn large salaries and nice bonues (the so called 1%).

I am not sure other than writing new laws which close up loopholes that Wall St. and the banking industry indulged in what else can be done. As an aside, the banking industry merely made loans after the feds loosened up loan requirements and encouraged the banks to loan money as a means of stimulating the economy by allowing everyone to buy a home. Not to judge anyone, but when I bought my first house, the bank wanted to know what I had for dinner on Wed. nights and how many servings. They wanted to know if I was capable of servicing the debt I was applying for. Signature only loans, no vetting? Exactly how did they think this would end up? Of course, the banks didn't care, again, they were encouraged by the Fed and loans are packaged and sold of a week after they were funded. Guess who bought this packages? Wall St. They became investment vehicles. The idea being that very few loans would end up in forclosure, but no one saw the storm coming.

The rest is history.

alan

The same happened here in Europe.
To "fix" the dot.com bubble, low interest rates wewre used to crate another bubble, the sub-prime crisis. Banks were bailed out of that one, and now they have all the power in the world to come after everybody and take as much as they want, cause evrybody, from individuals, companies, countries, etc is buried in debt.
There was this list of the Euopean Banks most exposed to debt form the PIIGS, the total amount is over 3000 Million Euros.
Problem is this money doesn't exist (it never exsited) and can't be created to please the banks, something has to give!
Over here the "flow" is to blame the PIIGS, but Germany failed bond emission, debt of Britain is twice bigger than ours, France has bigger deficit than ours, we work more hours per week than the German or any north country, etc. But is easyer to blame and beat up the weaker than do anything to solve the problem!
I am now suffering the "Austerity" measures, and next year will be much worse than this one.
Sory for the rant, but the system is compeltely rot from the inside and people must stand up, open eyes and do something!
My point of view is, we must pay, but ONLY what we owe and at acceptable interest rates, not the way IMF and the banks want it.
Make no ksitake, the huge multinational banks are lining their pockets with all this situation, at our expense! Thats not right and has to be stoped.
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