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Global warming

Posted by wodcutr 
June 06, 2009 08:57AM
Well now we have the official verdict on global warming. NASA has declared that the earth's warming is due to the sun and not caused by humans. Al Gore can now be free of scrutiny about his hypocrisy and give his prize back. We can all drive trucks and SUVs and even M1A1 tanks for that matter without worrying about our footprint. I wonder what scientist over at NASA is going to be fired by Obama for telling the emperor about his new clothes!
rkj
June 06, 2009 06:00PM
I'm confused confused smiley What are you saying?

Out with it boy!
rkj
June 06, 2009 06:01PM
sarcasm?
June 07, 2009 11:11AM
Global warming is caused by several factors and the human factor is one of them. We just need to try to reduce our output. Or kill half of the world's population.
rkj
June 07, 2009 08:46PM
overpopulation..... another kettle of fish confused smiley but its all the more reason to start making complete sense across the board..... NOW
June 07, 2009 10:29PM
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wodcutr
Well now we have the official verdict on global warming. NASA has declared that the earth's warming is due to the sun and not caused by humans.

Got a link? I looked and I didn't see anything that. I'd like to see a link to the statement by NASA officially declaring that global warming is due to the sun and not humans. That should be easy to find, if it's real.

John
June 08, 2009 10:12AM
Here's a LINK. It is not the direct article of NASA, but it quotes from it so you should be able to get there from here!
June 08, 2009 11:31AM
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wodcutr
Here's a LINK. It is not the direct article of NASA, but it quotes from it so you should be able to get there from here!

that extremely biased article links to this,

which links to this,

where you can read a summary of the NASA study.

Quote

Over the past century, Earth's average temperature has increased by approximately 0.6 degrees Celsius (1.1 degrees Fahrenheit). Solar heating accounts for about 0.15 C, or 25 percent, of this change, according to computer modeling results published by NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies researcher David Rind in 2004. Earth's climate depends on the delicate balance between incoming solar radiation, outgoing thermal radiation and the composition of Earth's atmosphere. Even small changes in these parameters can affect climate. Around 30 percent of the solar energy that strikes Earth is reflected back into space. Clouds, atmospheric aerosols, snow, ice, sand, ocean surface and even rooftops play a role in deflecting the incoming rays. The remaining 70 percent of solar energy is absorbed by land, ocean, and atmosphere.

"Greenhouse gases block about 40 percent of outgoing thermal radiation that emanates from Earth," Woods said. The resulting imbalance between incoming solar radiation and outgoing thermal radiation will likely cause Earth to heat up over the next century, accelerating the melting polar ice caps, causing sea levels to rise and increasing the probability of more violent global weather patterns.

...

"Right now, we are in between major ice ages, in a period that has been called the Holocene,” said Cahalan. “Over recent decades, however, we have moved into a human-dominated climate that some have termed the Anthropocene. The major change in Earth's climate is now really dominated by human activity, which has never happened before."

Unless we find a way to reduce the amount of greenhouse gases we put into the atmosphere, such as carbon dioxide from fossil fuel burning, the solar influence is not expected to dominate climate change.

the original article says absolutely nothing about humans having no effect on the environment. all it really says is that the sun also contributes .1 or .2 degrees C of a change one way or the other, depending on the sun spots.


rkj
June 08, 2009 03:58PM
Nice investigating Daniel smiling smiley humans are causing a tremendous amount of climate change. Any idiot knows that for heavens sake.

Send your cards and letters to rick jost, box 676, Kalamazoo, Michigan
June 08, 2009 05:15PM
So did you guys miss the part where NASA admits that mars is also warming because the sun is causing that too. I don't think that there are martians effecting that rise in temperature! The sun has so much more energy in it than man can create. Ya we might be causing .001% of the rise in temperature, but the earth has its own built in mechanisms to deal with our "pollution". The sun is just way more powerful than what we can effect. You have to remember that back in Columbus' day all the leading scientists said the earth was flat. Global warming is happening, but it is not caused by man! It is the natural cycle of the earths orbit. We are also about to experience a pole shift too. That has happened a few times before as well. Lots of earthquakes when that happens! Maybe we should quit using magnets and that won't happen either. winking smiley
June 08, 2009 08:08PM
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wodcutr
Here's a LINK. It is not the direct article of NASA, but it quotes from it so you should be able to get there from here!

I think if you make a claim that NASA said something you should prove it, not send me on a wild goose chase. I'm not trying to be obnoxious. I just don't think you've successfully made your case yet.

John
June 08, 2009 10:24PM
I didn't declare anything...I just posted what others have concluded from the study and published. Ya I know this is a touchy subject. I am not about to prove anything to anyone as we all have our own opinion on the matter. It is almost like trying to prove that there is a God. To those that believe already not much needs to be said. To those that are sceptical nothing can be said to prove the point to their satisfaction. So there - you can believe what you want about global warming. I choose to believe that we humans are not the cause of this phenomenon and that what we do to this planet is so minuscule in its effects that to think otherwise would be that we must think we are really something and can control things we can't and don't understand. We can't even create an energy source that will last one year let alone something like the sun. Who do we think we are - God? The fact is that we don't have any control on the matter. It is like having to take a dump. You might be able to hold it for a while but eventually you are going to have to sit on the pot. We think we are so smart when we are all just a bunch of idiots! So go out and save the planet if you think you can!
rkj
June 08, 2009 10:29PM
Some people have a problem with the whole climate chance thing, and who's causing a lot of it B)- That's probably a lot easier anyway; then they don't have to change anything and they live guilt free thumbs up
June 08, 2009 11:28PM
So Rick, you must live in a house made of dirt, ride a bicycle to go anywhere, eat only organic grown food, and you must never fart. NOT!!! The problem with liberals is that they want everyone else to change so they can feel guilt free about their own skewed ideas. The truth is that our human existence is really survival of the fittest. As this economy gets worse and worse the green agenda is going to go farther and farther down on your list of priorities. You will soon find yourself wondering where your next meal will come from and when it takes an SUV full of money to buy a loaf of bread I doubt you will care about who caused the earth to raise a half a degree. Good luck with your agenda filled life. I have better things to worry about!
June 09, 2009 01:19AM
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wodcutr
So Rick, you must live in a house made of dirt, ride a bicycle to go anywhere, eat only organic grown food, and you must never fart. NOT!!! The problem with liberals is that they want everyone else to change so they can feel guilt free about their own skewed ideas. The truth is that our human existence is really survival of the fittest. As this economy gets worse and worse the green agenda is going to go farther and farther down on your list of priorities. You will soon find yourself wondering where your next meal will come from and when it takes an SUV full of money to buy a loaf of bread I doubt you will care about who caused the earth to raise a half a degree. Good luck with your agenda filled life. I have better things to worry about!

please read the original article. i posted the link to it. nowhere does it say that humans aren't responsible for global warming. all it says is that the sun is also changing. you got your information from a website that got their information from another website, which got their information from another website, which got their information from the report nasa published. do you see anything wrong there? its like playing a game of telephone. the message at the beginning is never the same as what the last person hears.

you are really fooling yourself if all the pollution we create isn't damaging the earth's atmosphere and ozone layer. do you think machines are perfectly clean and have zero waste? what do you think is coming out of your exhaust pipe on your e30s? its harmful to humans and to the environment, no matter which way you slice it. if you think there is nothing harmful in all the exhaust produced, why don't you try sticking your nose in the tailpipe and taking a long, deep breath? it might help to clear up your mind a bit.

but seriously, even if you don't think all of our emissions aren't causing the earth to get warmer, how can you possibly think the emissions aren't bad for the environment and our health? the reason why people drive fuel efficient vehicles isn't just to save money or prevent global warming, it is also to pollute less! imagine that!


June 09, 2009 09:32AM
So Daniel, if you are so smart why aren't you driving a prius? Your S52 is polluting just as much as my M20. Have you been sucking on your exhaust as you suggest I do? Your thinking is so clear but your actions are quite smog filled. You're another Al Gore preaching a good sermon, but unwilling to pay the price yourself to live what you think is so important. Until you put your money where your mouth is I suggest you stop spewing the rhetoric that has this nation so divided and deeply in debt. You're own actions are indicative of your naivety. Green thinking is great to a degree. If saving the environment puts me financially at risk then I say forget it. Do you really want to be the slave of government for an unproven agenda. I believe that is how the Nazis came to power. They got the people to believe that they were somehow a superior race and needed to subject the world to their way of thinking. I don't think China is willing to play the game the same way the more enlightened countries are wanting it played. Guess who is in control now? Like I said in my previous post...our human experience is survival of the fittest. You are not driving a prius because you can't afford one as you would rather eat and finish your schooling. Your life is more important than some agenda. The US is as bankrupt as GM with no one to bail us out. Look at the big picture man. Focus your energy on survival, not rhetoric. I am sure the Germans thought they were superior. What was the cost? A few million lives and a destroyed Europe. Today we have crazies denying it ever happened. Those who can not learn from the past are bound to repeat it. We are all about to become subservient to the Chinese because of our debt. Spending more to be environmentally correct is absurd. I would rather not pollute, but there really isn't a viable alternative at the moment, so I and everyone else continue to do so. Until the green movement comes up with something better than ethanol I am stuck paying the Arabs for oil. Personally I would rather eat corn than put it in my gas tank. The other day I was driving around with a guy that had a CNG car. We were looking at some property that was about 200 miles away. It took us over an hour to find a filling station, but it only cost $5 to fill the tank. I didn't think it was worth the hassle. I guess I am just a heathen!
June 09, 2009 12:37PM
Quote
wodcutr
So Daniel, if you are so smart why aren't you driving a prius? Your S52 is polluting just as much as my M20. Have you been sucking on your exhaust as you suggest I do? Your thinking is so clear but your actions are quite smog filled. You're another Al Gore preaching a good sermon, but unwilling to pay the price yourself to live what you think is so important. Until you put your money where your mouth is I suggest you stop spewing the rhetoric that has this nation so divided and deeply in debt. You're own actions are indicative of your naivety. Green thinking is great to a degree. If saving the environment puts me financially at risk then I say forget it. Do you really want to be the slave of government for an unproven agenda. I believe that is how the Nazis came to power. They got the people to believe that they were somehow a superior race and needed to subject the world to their way of thinking. I don't think China is willing to play the game the same way the more enlightened countries are wanting it played. Guess who is in control now? Like I said in my previous post...our human experience is survival of the fittest. You are not driving a prius because you can't afford one as you would rather eat and finish your schooling. Your life is more important than some agenda. The US is as bankrupt as GM with no one to bail us out. Look at the big picture man. Focus your energy on survival, not rhetoric. I am sure the Germans thought they were superior. What was the cost? A few million lives and a destroyed Europe. Today we have crazies denying it ever happened. Those who can not learn from the past are bound to repeat it. We are all about to become subservient to the Chinese because of our debt. Spending more to be environmentally correct is absurd. I would rather not pollute, but there really isn't a viable alternative at the moment, so I and everyone else continue to do so. Until the green movement comes up with something better than ethanol I am stuck paying the Arabs for oil. Personally I would rather eat corn than put it in my gas tank. The other day I was driving around with a guy that had a CNG car. We were looking at some property that was about 200 miles away. It took us over an hour to find a filling station, but it only cost $5 to fill the tank. I didn't think it was worth the hassle. I guess I am just a heathen!

I never claimed to be "green". Not once, so please don't slap that label on me. I don't really give a crap about Al Gore, either. All I said was that I acknowledge the fact that our activities as humans are accelerating the decline of the environment, and after reading your heated response, you seem to agree. We also agree that right now it is not financially feasible or convenient for me or most people to actively reduce their emissions on a large scale. I value driving experience over polluting less, which is why I drive God's chariot rather than a Prius, which is arguably the worst driving new vehicle out there.

Where I take issue is when you claim that we as humans have zero effect on global warming. the fact is, emissions = greenhouse gases being trapped = heat, and humans produce a lot of emissions.

I also take issue with how you refuse to realize the possible bias inherent in your choice of a source for news.

Re-read your first post:
"Well now we have the official verdict on global warming. NASA has declared that the earth's warming is due to the sun and not caused by humans."

I can see how you deduced that from the particular article you read. Now read the article closest to the source. Please! The similarities between the original article and the one you read are extremely few and far between.

This is straight out of the NASA report:
Quote

"The sun has powered almost everything on Earth since life began, including its climate. The sun also delivers an annual and seasonal impact, changing the character of each hemisphere as Earth’s orientation shifts through the year. Since the Industrial Revolution, however, new forces have begun to exert significant influence on Earth’s climate.

“For the last 20 to 30 years, we believe greenhouse gases have been the dominant influence on recent climate change,” said Robert Cahalan, climatologist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md."

Now what was that about humans having zero effect on the planet, and how we should be driving tanks around?


June 09, 2009 04:12PM
Daniel - my original post was supposed to be funny. Apparently my sense of humor is not politically correct enough for some people. I am the first to admit that humans produce emissions, and methane, and toxic waste, and a myriad of other byproducts that are not good for us to ingest. With the advancement of technology we have been producing more and more things that are harmful. The problem as I see it is that we are too used to our modern way of living. Would you be willing to go back to riding a horse or walk everywhere. How about taking a three month vacation to Hawaii and spending two months getting there and back by wind power. It is not as if everyone is willing to just go back to things the way they were 200 years ago. The Chinese have seen what modern living is like and they want it too. Even if everyone in America was forced to have a zero footprint there are 100 times that many more willing to step up and produce this waste. My belief is not that we do not produce waste or have an effect on the current warming trend we are experiencing, but that the earth has its own mechanisms built into it to keep everything in check. It is not as if the earth has not already experienced a time where higher temperatures were common. The Vikings were able to sail clear over the ice cap as ice was not there and they settled Greenland which at the time was a flourishing green continent. How are we to know that the earth isn't just getting more acclimated to that similar time in its history? My point is that we as humans can not control the temperature of the earth. The earth can take care of itself and we humans will adjust accordingly. If that means that Greenland will become the new Hawaii then we will go there and flourish. The earth was created for man, not man for the earth. God is in control here and it is asinine to assume that we can influence the systems that He has put in place. It would be like you trying to damn up the Mississippi by putting your hand in the water and even if you had 10,000 people all jump in at the same time you still would not stop the flow of the river. The earth is way beyond mans understanding and although we understand much more than we used to we still do not have all the information. That is my belief. I do not feel this way so I can be guilt free as Rick would suggest or that I am lazy and cheap because it is not worth the effort or money. I just believe that God has things under control and my measly 80 years or so on this planet is just a tiny fraction of my true existence. When Moses saw the works of God's hands he marveled and instantly knew that man was nothing comparatively speaking. I am not bothered by green thinking, but when liberals force me to have to accept their agenda just because they think they can, I have a big problem. So take my comments however you will. I know that this is not the place that I will ever convince anyone of anything. I guess I knew I would open a can of worms for even mentioning the subject. I guess we can all still be friends even if we disagree. It's the E30 we all have in common. Lets enjoy that while we still can!
June 09, 2009 05:34PM
Quote
wodcutr
Daniel - my original post was supposed to be funny. Apparently my sense of humor is not politically correct enough for some people....

One little emoticon in your original post could have avoided this thread going sideways winking smiley

I got that it was probably tongue i cheek but without the 'punctuation' I guess not every one was quick enough to see it.
June 09, 2009 09:53PM
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Archeo-peteriX
Quote
wodcutr
Daniel - my original post was supposed to be funny. Apparently my sense of humor is not politically correct enough for some people....

One little emoticon in your original post could have avoided this thread going sideways winking smiley

this is true.

it didn't sound like you were just kidding.


June 10, 2009 09:39AM
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wodcutr
earth has its own mechanisms built into it to keep everything in check.
It's called "extinction".

Quote

The earth was created for man, not man for the earth. God is in control here.

oh



Anybody else notice it's getting hot in here?
We may need to rig up a fan to cool things off -- mechanical, electrical, or otherwise.
June 10, 2009 10:01AM
Actually Ferd, 2008 was the coolest year of this decade so far and from what I have seen of the first half of 2009 it is cooler than last year, at least in my neck of the woods. As far as man becoming extinct that could happen with an all out nuclear war or another huge asteroid impact, both of which are beyond our personal control so I try not to loose sleep over those kinds of things!
June 10, 2009 10:12AM
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Ferdinand
Quote
wodcutr
earth has its own mechanisms built into it to keep everything in check.
It's called "extinction".

Quote

The earth was created for man, not man for the earth. God is in control here.

oh



Anybody else notice it's getting hot in here?
We may need to rig up a fan to cool things off -- mechanical, electrical, or otherwise.

Oh dear...I see what you mean confused smiley
June 11, 2009 09:36AM
Quote
Ferdinand
Quote
wodcutr
earth has its own mechanisms built into it to keep everything in check.
It's called "extinction".

Quote

The earth was created for man, not man for the earth. God is in control here.

oh



Anybody else notice it's getting hot in here?
We may need to rig up a fan to cool things off -- mechanical, electrical, or otherwise.

Well the earth is already rotating, so we might as well slap a big belt around it.


June 21, 2009 05:51PM
Update: I am building an ophthalmologist a log home way up in the mountains and he wanted me to check into a geothermal heating system for the house. Well so far I have two bids each in excess of 100k for this type of system. A conventional propane forced air system for the same house would probably come in at 25k. The government has an incentive right now that will allow a person to deduct 30% of the cost to build the green system. Even with the incentive it would still be double the cost. I just don't see the justification of spending that kind of money for a part time residence. Needless to say the owner will not be going green either!
June 21, 2009 08:02PM
Quote
wodcutr
Update: I am building an ophthalmologist a log home way up in the mountains and he wanted me to check into a geothermal heating system for the house. Well so far I have two bids each in excess of 100k for this type of system. A conventional propane forced air system for the same house would probably come in at 25k. The government has an incentive right now that will allow a person to deduct 30% of the cost to build the green system. Even with the incentive it would still be double the cost. I just don't see the justification of spending that kind of money for a part time residence. Needless to say the owner will not be going green either!

Those geothermal systems are outrageously priced,.
There are Gas-powered heat pumps could be an option though...
[uk.sanyo.com]
June 21, 2009 08:38PM
Quote
Jose Pinto
Quote
wodcutr
Update: I am building an ophthalmologist a log home way up in the mountains and he wanted me to check into a geothermal heating system for the house. Well so far I have two bids each in excess of 100k for this type of system. A conventional propane forced air system for the same house would probably come in at 25k. The government has an incentive right now that will allow a person to deduct 30% of the cost to build the green system. Even with the incentive it would still be double the cost. I just don't see the justification of spending that kind of money for a part time residence. Needless to say the owner will not be going green either!

Those geothermal systems are outrageously priced,.
There are Gas-powered heat pumps could be an option though...
[uk.sanyo.com]

What's wrong with passive solar for heating/cooling? I've seen many homes built with this technology and it works fine.

There is/was an excellent example of passive solar used to air condition a huge office building complex in Southern California at the old Koll business center.

A friend of mine built a passive solar home on Gabriola Island near Vancouver. He had an auxiliary wood burning stove for the winter but never used it in the three years he lived there smiling smiley
rkj
June 21, 2009 10:28PM
Quote
Archeo-peteriX
Quote
Jose Pinto
Quote
wodcutr
Update: I am building an ophthalmologist a log home way up in the mountains and he wanted me to check into a geothermal heating system for the house. Well so far I have two bids each in excess of 100k for this type of system. A conventional propane forced air system for the same house would probably come in at 25k. The government has an incentive right now that will allow a person to deduct 30% of the cost to build the green system. Even with the incentive it would still be double the cost. I just don't see the justification of spending that kind of money for a part time residence. Needless to say the owner will not be going green either!

Those geothermal systems are outrageously priced,.
There are Gas-powered heat pumps could be an option though...
[uk.sanyo.com]

What's wrong with passive solar for heating/cooling? I've seen many homes built with this technology and it works fine.

There is/was an excellent example of passive solar used to air condition a huge office building complex in Southern California at the old Koll business center.

A friend of mine built a passive solar home on Gabriola Island near Vancouver. He had an auxiliary wood burning stove for the winter but never used it in the three years he lived there smiling smiley

Absolutely, just a south kitchen with slate floors can do wonders in the middle of winter. Solar power is getting reasonable enough for regular people these days.

I'm thinking of creative ways to gather wood these days for the stove!
June 22, 2009 09:43AM
Building up as high as 9000 feet gives unique challenges. Solar panels are good when you have good exposure all day long. In the mountains that can be limited not only by mountains but by trees too. Also the temperature extremes can be huge at that elevation too. In the winter which lasts six months up there, you can expect to have ten feet of snow cover and temps down to 30 below. Solar would be rendered useless in those conditions. All of the propane fired equipment have to be derated to compensate for the elevation so that factors in too. Any way you look at it, it costs more to build that high than at sea level, but to go green under less than ideal situations can really burn up the cash in a hurry. Maybe that is why I am not so enthusiastic about the technology. Every time I look into it I end up wasting a lot of time for nothing in return!
June 22, 2009 06:38PM
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wodcutr
Building up as high as 9000 feet gives unique challenges. Solar panels are good when you have good exposure all day long. In the mountains that can be limited not only by mountains but by trees too. Also the temperature extremes can be huge at that elevation too. In the winter which lasts six months up there, you can expect to have ten feet of snow cover and temps down to 30 below. Solar would be rendered useless in those conditions. All of the propane fired equipment have to be derated to compensate for the elevation so that factors in too. Any way you look at it, it costs more to build that high than at sea level, but to go green under less than ideal situations can really burn up the cash in a hurry. Maybe that is why I am not so enthusiastic about the technology. Every time I look into it I end up wasting a lot of time for nothing in return!

Just converted feet to meter, it turns out 2743,2m above sea level, which is a lot.
Solar panels are a valid solution to get hot water for bathroom, depending on the sun exposure you get, but some backup system will be required.
Good insulation and intelligent design of the house is the basis, as the comfort greatly depend on it.
There will be lots of snow, and wind. If the windows are made to collect the most sunlight as possible in the winter, and to be shaded in the summer, a lot of energy will be saved. The interior should have brick or stone walls, that are insulated from the outside as much as possible. Those bricks or stones will act as a thermal accumulators, and store heat through the cold nights and absorb heat during summer hot days. Concrete floor or/and ceiling will help as well, provided they are insulated from the exterior.

The most economic and functional heating system would be a radiating floor, powered from a simple gas or oil boiler. The floor should be insulated from below, and any finishing can be used over the floor.
There shouldn't be need for forced air, usually natural passive ventilation is enough for homes, except perhaps the kitchen or some WC without window.

I'm currently working for a company where HVAC projects are made, as well as the energy efficiency audits, which are now mandatory over here for every home built new, sold or for rent.
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