Toyota, is it telling the truth?

It looks like the Government is trying to intercede by telling Toyota to come clean with all its information regarding the linkage and electrical systems controlling the fuel accelerating system. Now It's the brakes that are at issue. It seems to me a long time since a lot of these issues have been reported and accidents have happened. Why do things like this take so long to see the light of day? This might be Toyota's undoing for a while.

The floormat thing is unforgivable I think, too obvious to miss!

Rick

It's largely a problem with the Japanese mind set. To admit fault would be a major loss of 'face', so admissions are always slow to come and seldom voluntarily. Don't be surprised when the CEO and President resign in tearful disgrace...they will take the full blame for this disaster.

The only truth of the matter is that Toyota still doesn't know what is causing the problem(s) and will waffle until the governments force their hand. Meanwhile, they dig a deeper and deeper hole that they may not be able to climb out of. Toyota is already hurting big time(possibly even more than Detroit was before the bail out). Add this latest fiasco and it could be curtains for the once mighty giant.

I think my next purchase(for my wife) will be domestic and a model that isn't just a rebadged Toyota or Suzuki.
The Ford Focus is looking pretty good right about now

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Archeo-peteriX
It's largely a problem with the Japanese mind set. To admit fault would be a major loss of 'face', so admissions are always slow to come and seldom voluntarily. Don't be surprised when the CEO and President resign in tearful disgrace...they will take the full blame for this disaster.

The only truth of the matter is that Toyota still doesn't know what is causing the problem(s) and will waffle until the governments force their hand. Meanwhile, they dig a deeper and deeper hole that they may not be able to climb out of. Toyota is already hurting big time(possibly even more than Detroit was before the bail out). Add this latest fiasco and it could be curtains for the once mighty giant.

I think my next purchase(for my wife) will be domestic and a model that isn't just a rebadged Toyota or Suzuki.
The Ford Focus is looking pretty good right about now

Oh right, I forgot about the whole face thing.

Faith, my oldest, bought a Focus and she loves it-

I hear on the news Lexus are having issues too...

Rick

I think Peter hit it correctly. The corporate culture of Toyota requires secrecy and no admission of fault in order to "save face". For myself, I have hated the ever increasing reliance on electronics in cars. The systems have become so complex, no one knows what to do when something goes wrong.

It could be that the pedals stick, the driver applies the brakes, the car slows a bit and then resumes to the speed that the pedal stuck at so the car feels like it is accelerating? The surprising thing is I had always thought no engine could overcome a brake system unless the brakes have faded? One good thing will be reflashing the ECU so that if the brakes are applied, the motor resets to idle. That is part of this recall.

Now on to the Prius with it's ABS-Regenerative braking system. Perhaps cars don't have to be more complex than the Space Shuttle?

alan

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alanrw
For myself, I have hated the ever increasing reliance on electronics in cars. The systems have become so complex, no one knows what to do when something goes wrong.

I don't like traction control. I don't like ABS. And I absolutely hate when ESC takes over and fights my control inputs. I like driving my car sideways in slippery conditions. I don't want some computer automatically stepping in and preventing me from doing that.

That said, there are many electronic controls that actually are beneficial. Electronic fuel injection and spark ignition controls are far superior and can be much more finely tuned over a wider range of operating conditions than mechanical devices like carburettors and spinning flyweights in distributors to control spark advance.

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One good thing will be reflashing the ECU so that if the brakes are applied, the motor resets to idle. That is part of this recall.

Groan.

No way!!! This is NOT a good thing!

Some cars already have such a brake interlock system, like the VW Golf TDI, where the throttle goes dead whenever the brake pedal is pressed. That is an abomination!

Say good-bye to left-foot braking techniques, or heel-and-toe downshifts...

Left-foot braking against right-foot throttle is a useful technique for inducing oversteer in a FWD or even AWD car. That is no longer possible if the engine automatically shuts down whenever you touch the brake pedal.

Similarly heel-and-toe footwork to achieve smooth downshifts, using the right foot to press the brake pedal while simultaneously blipping the throttle as the left foot works the clutch, will no longer be possible if the throttle pedal goes numb and dead whenever the brakes are applied.

Thankfully I can still enjoy driving my 1990 E30 which has none of the crap in it, other than ABS (which I will soon figure out how to deactivate via a switch whenever I wish.) Instead we get more and more of those automatic electronic "safety" nannies to take over the task of driving, because people are too stupid to learn how to do it for themselves. Automatic tire pressure monitoring and warning systems, for god's sake. People don't know enough to use a pressure gauge occasionally to check their own tires? Instead they'll blame the government or automakers for not having installed such features to automatically protect them from themselves.

Very soon there will be no more joy or artistry left in driving a car. Might as well ride the bus instead.

Ferdinand, you are reading my mind.

Add my "me too" to everything you just said.

I'm getting set to take the iX ice racing this weekend. I will be sliding sideways, left foot braking and heel-toe downshifting all weekend, and thanking my stars that I have an old car that lets me do the driving.

And when you figure out how to add that ABS cutoff switch, let us know so that I can do it too.

__________
Dave
'91 325iX



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2010 11:07AM by Dave_G.

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Dave_G
Ferdinand, you are reading my mind.

Add my "me too" to everything you just said.

I'm getting set to take the iX ice racing this weekend. I will be sliding sideways, left foot braking and heel-toe downshifting all weekend, and thanking my stars that I have an old car that lets me do the driving.

And when you figure out how to add that ABS cutoff switch, let us know so that I can do it too.

Can I get an amen

Most electronic throttle pedals will cut out when brakes are applied for a while. I was having a US Ford Fusion throttle pedal in my hands today and a mechanic said it was a nice piece of engineering. I said it sucked, true throttle pedals should have a cable or a linkage, not an electronic connector.

Heel and toe, double declutching, forget that, soon all cars will have double clutch transmissions (and they don't come with double clutch pedals). It spoils all the fun.

Remember the days where sports cars were driven by people who could drive, who knew to drive and who drove. Nowadays, sports cars are bought by people with money. That's why I drive an E30, I have no money and I'd like to learn to drive ;-)

I'm going to start off sounding like I disagree, but don't worry, it'll come around.

I love electronics in my car. Stick electronics in everything. The problem as I see it is not that things are electronic, it's that the benefit of electronics is never realized in modern cars. An electronic system, coupled with software, should be able to monitor everything in our car, and then relay all that information to you somehow. The other purpose of electronics is exactly what you guys are wishing for, more control over components. There should be a switch for the ABS system, for any and ever component. If I don't want running lights, I should be able to turn them off. I want to be able to disable or enable every subsystem on a car at whim, which isn't possible with a purely mechanical car. I want to know the flow rate of every injector. I want to see the resistance curve of my air flow meter. I want software that is smart enough to realize when a component isn't functioning the way it should.

And the thing is, all of that is possible, and has been for a decade. Think about the complexity of a system as "simple" as ABS, which we've had forever now. But none of the wonder and power of electronics + software is exposed to the end user.

Now, I know why all of it isn't exposed. You want a two ton block of metal with your family inside going 70mph down the freeway to be rock solid and without "glitches". There is an expectation there that the openness of a desktop computer can not provide. This is one reason the Apple iPhone was seemingly so locked down at launch, because people have different expectations for a phone than they do a desktop computer. However, stability is not harmed by exposing the information that ever car gathers. Perhaps you aren't allowed to manipulate the system, but there isn't any reason you shouldn't have access to all the data that the CPU running your car has access to.

In closing, we all want to drive our vehicles in the manner that we think they should be driven. Electronics should be an enabler of this flexibility to morph a vehicle into the type of machine we want to drive. Sadly, these complex systems have been added to cars, without many of the benefits they could provide, resulting in a near lose-lose situation for the driver. *sigh*

Okay, rant over

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1989 - E30 - M20 - Manual. Approximately 270,000 miles
2000 - E46 - M52TUB28 - Manual. Approximately 110,000 miles

Amen

This worries me. My brother just got himself a Toyota Altis (Corolla) early last year and I am not sure if this car was affected by the potential steering issue currently being investigated now at the US. Funny how Toyota always had the reputation of being very reliable (at least here in my country).

As far as the electronics go, I find the amount of actual control removed from the driver on today's cars quite annoying. The throttle-by-wire system of the Corolla sucked and steering feedback is almost non-existent. The throttle on this car (or most other throttle-by-wire cars I've tried) has this annoying delay before the engine responds when coming out of idle. The steering has this deadband near center. I can move the steering wheel almost half an inch left and right before I notice any noticeable response to steering. What's the point of having these systems anyway when the standard cable throttle and hydraulic power steering systems worked perfectly?

Then there comes the cost of repairing these systems if they break down. I know a lot of cars have these electronics thrashed by last year's flood leaving their owners no choice but to sell them at rock-bottom prices simply because they cannot afford to repair them. The more "traditional" cars got up and running pretty fast.

I am with you on the frustration with all the interlocks and auto controls. I have a good time with my E-30 but my spousal units E-38 has lots of annoying automation. We got stuck in the snow trying to get into our drive way last Winter. Could not "rock" the car to get it moving. The brake has to be depressed to move the shift lever from N to either R or D. Finally had to get out and push.

Bob in Everett