Yes We Can

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Cab Treadway

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Andy 90 325i
...it just seems like good common sense to not distribute media that strives to incite violence.

My problem is that there are lots of things that seem like good common sense, until you start taking them to the next logical step. First it's media that incites violence (and yet we as a society have no problem with extraordinarily violent video games, as if that makes sense), then someone decides that anything that has any violence in it is bad and we get any cop TV shows banned, then someone doesn't like anything with any sexuality in it because it incites violence against women, so we get romantic movies banned...

As a parent, you have every right to raise your kids the way you see fit, and teach them what is right and wrong. But government is not supposed to be society's parent and decide what should or shouldn't be available. You can't suppress people's opinions because there's a potential for an unstable person to commit a violent act against society if they come into contact with it.

True enough, but like I said, I am speaking specifically about things that incite violence. Not just things that portray it ie. movies. I think it is fair to say that a KKK film would be banned from being shown on a bigscreen if it was calling on viewers to go out and hang people etc. and I agree with this. I think kids should not be allowed to play violent games or watch overly violent movies until they are old enough, and I firmly believe that is up to the parents. Personally I think it is BS that a movie theatre won't let a 16 yr old into a rated R movie unless the parent is present, but that is a whole other story.

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Andy 90 325i
True enough, but like I said, I am speaking specifically about things that incite violence. Not just things that portray it ie. movies. I think it is fair to say that a KKK film would be banned from being shown on a bigscreen if it was calling on viewers to go out and hang people etc. and I agree with this. I think kids should not be allowed to play violent games or watch overly violent movies until they are old enough, and I firmly believe that is up to the parents. Personally I think it is BS that a movie theatre won't let a 16 yr old into a rated R movie unless the parent is present, but that is a whole other story.

I understand what you're saying. I'm saying that while *you* are only speaking to media that incites violence, the next guy in line might think something else is more offensive than violence, and why should you get your thing banned when his doesn't, which in his opinion is worse? Pretty soon everything is getting banned.

As for a KKK movie getting banned, that would be the choice of the owner of the movie theater, and I respect their choice as to whether or not to show any particular movie. But the government shouldn't be allowed to say they can't make the movie. Whether or not a retailer will sell a book/CD/DVD does sort of end up being a form of control in the end. There have been times where a retailer like Wal-Mart has said they won't carry something, and that has a huge effect on whether that product gets made or makes money. To not carry a product is Wal-Mart's choice, and that's fine. If the KKK finds that no movie theater companies in the country are going to screen their hate-movie, they might decide not to make it, but that's a very different thing than government censorship.

The thing about free speech is that you have to make sure that everyone's ideas are allowed to be put out there, not just the socially acceptable or popular or "healthy" ones. Because once you start telling me what I can and can't write, then you're telling me what it is and isn't okay to think and believe, and that is wrong. I can disagree with and detest the people who believe that their race/sex/religion/whatever is somehow better than mine, but I have to protect their right to believe that. There are obviously lines that have to be drawn to protect society, but those lines should be on what actions you take, not what thoughts you have or read about.

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT

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Cab Treadway

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Andy 90 325i
...it just seems like good common sense to not distribute media that strives to incite violence.

My problem is that there are lots of things that seem like good common sense, until you start taking them to the next logical step. First it's media that incites violence (and yet we as a society have no problem with extraordinarily violent video games, as if that makes sense), then someone decides that anything that has any violence in it is bad and we get any cop TV shows banned, then someone doesn't like anything with any sexuality in it because it incites violence against women, so we get romantic movies banned...

As a parent, you have every right to raise your kids the way you see fit, and teach them what is right and wrong. But government is not supposed to be society's parent and decide what should or shouldn't be available. You can't suppress people's opinions because there's a potential for an unstable person to commit a violent act against society if they come into contact with it.

You guys knew I wouldn't be able to leave this alone, didn't you.

I decided to see what I could find on the internets about the free speech / hate speech debate. The ACLU had a couple of good articles. The gist of it is, they would rather not see any speech infringed, but they are against any actions as a result of any speech that violates anyone's rights. I suppose that means books and speech that incite violence are OK, but if you commit a violent act after reading one of these books you are in trouble. I can go along with that even though I still think the difference between ideas and incitement is pretty clear. It is certainly more important to me to keep speech free than to try to make it all nice. The articles are at these links so you can read them yourselves. The first one is oriented more around speech on college campuses, but the ideas still apply. The second one is more specific to what we've been tossing around here.

[www.aclu.org]

[www.aclu.org]

Cab,
You are a voice of reason in all this discussion. Most of the discussion has ignored one very important item that you kept pointing toward but not many seemed to actually comprehend; the proper role of government. Two things most Americans do not want to discuss much is politics and religion. There is nothing that touches our lives more than politics and religion. With religion or morality, its who's morality are we going to have? I think it was Ben Franklin who once said that men will be ruled by God or tyrants. That brings us to the other of the two topics...the Constitution. Nearly all controversies these days boil down to those two things, morality and the Constitution. Both are under attack.

Most do not realize that there is a war going on against the Constitution. BHO was a constitutional law teacher but to hear what he has planned for us is to know that he has not read the Constitution very carefully and has no appreciation for the proper role of government. What he is creating for us is the final stages of democracy that will deteriorate into a totalitarian government just like a lot of others around the world. We are well on our way down the road to serfdom, trading our long term freedom for "security" in the short term. Once our morality is destroyed and our economy is in ruins with rampant inflation, we can be convinced to accept more controls on our lives to protect us.

Keep up those good posts Cab.

Bob in Everett

If you want some good reading about our constitution and how the founding fathers arrived at all the specifics of our government and why it was set up the way it was you need to check out "The five thousand year leap" by W. Cleon Skousen. It just might shed some light on the issues that you all are discussing. I am enjoying the posts and the discussion!

Just for comic relief...

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Andy 90 325i
Just for comic relief...

No relief there...just more republican rhetoric. Can you say 'sore losers'?

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Archeo-peteriX

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Andy 90 325i
Just for comic relief...

No relief there...just more republican rhetoric. Can you say 'sore losers'?

Wow. On the chance that you're not joking, um, I've never known the Onion to be serious about anything, and pretty much makes fun of any and everything.

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT

Sorry, I'm just burning out on political rhetoric and the mindless waste of time spent on something that can't be changed.
We, in Canada had several elections last year; two of them were Federal elections. We will be having yet another one in a few short weeks or months because the losers will not accept the will of the people. That is a problem with our system of government.

The problem with all these elections is that nothing is getting done and the tax payers are footing the bill for these damn elections.

I have no problem with the official opposition doing it's job in the halls of government but when right/left wing zealots continue to hassle and hamper the people's choice with crap like this video; I'm not amused.

Political satire can be done with great humour and also tastefully. There used to be a program that took place in a Washington bar that featured muppet style characters made to look like the current politicians. It was tastefully and cleverly done. It only lasted one season because the humour was above the level the average right/left wing zealot could understand.

SNL did some good stuff during the campaign...nothing like the lame and stup thing seen in this video

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Archeo-peteriX
I have no problem with the official opposition doing it's job in the halls of government but when right/left wing zealots continue to hassle and hamper the people's choice with crap like this video; I'm not amused.

Did you ever make any negative and/or comical comments about Bush during the last 8 years? He was also the US people's choice (twice actually, by the rules set forth in the Constitution, if not by popular vote each time).

I know this was intended to be a moment of amusement, and not to pick on your response, but it reminds me of something that I've noticed over the last few weeks. During the last 8 years, it was just accepted as part of our society that the president was a goofball at best, and the biggest mistake the American people ever made (twice) at worst. It was extremely common to make jokes at his expense, and it was just laughed off. But I've noticed now that if any comment is made that can in any way be interpreted in such a way as to intimate that the one making the comment is not a huge Obama supporter, that person just gets jumped on from every possible angle. It's along the same lines as my comments about those with the 1/20/09 bumper stickers for the last few years. It was funny when the joke was on someone else, but now that their guy is the butt of the joke, it's just not funny, not even a little bit.

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Political satire can be done with great humour and also tastefully. There used to be a program that took place in a Washington bar that featured muppet style characters made to look like the current politicians. It was tastefully and cleverly done. It only lasted one season because the humour was above the level the average right/left wing zealot could understand.

SNL did some good stuff during the campaign...nothing like the lame and stup thing seen in this video

The Onion is not just political satire. It's just goofball stuff presented as "real" news. I find most of it very amusing. And maybe you didn't notice during the US campaign, but there were absolutely people like those portrayed in the video. In fact, before the election, I was trying to figure out what it was about Obama that everyone loved, because almost every one of his supporters simply said "change" or "Bush sucks" when asked why Obama was so great. These were many of the same people, when asked after the election to name the three branches of the gov't, and which party controlled Congress (before the 08 elections) and most of them couldn't answer correctly.

I commend Obama for all his good qualities, I just disagree with a good chunk of his ideology. I also commend his team for getting so many people out to vote for what was for many of them their first time. Winning an election means getting more votes than the other guy, and those votes count the same if they come from interested, intelligent, and informed voters as if they come from those who may or may not really know much of the issues, but are caught up in the moment, and there were definitely a ton of the latter roaming around during the campaign. I know not all of his supporters fit the latter category, and I'm sure there are plenty on both sides, but most humor has roots in real life, and whether you admit it or not, that video presented an accurate, if exaggerated portrayal of what a lot of us saw during the campaign.

If McCain had won, we'd be seeing lots of videos and other satire about him (probably about how old he is). To the victor go the spoils.

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2009 01:50PM by Cab Treadway.

I can't open your eyes if you don't want to see

Cab, Did bush really win the first election?, I seem to remember gore getting more votes and there was some trickery down in Florida somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that first election was a bit fixed.

Considering, what a pile of shit that was handed him, everything I've heard so far has been pretty fair and sensible coming out of Obamas mouth.

It seems that you think bush was unfairly treated

Wow, didn't expect such an ugly poor reception. I don't hate Obama; in fact I voted for him to be our senator. I didn't vote for him for President, because I don't agree with some of the things he wants to do, and he has very little experience, but he is now my President, so we'll see how much of what he wants to do will get done. I really felt like the entire election was a choice between lesser evils personally, but back to the video. I think you really had to be here in the US to see these people like Cab and I did everyday to fully appreciate the humor. It isn't even bashing Obama, it is just making fun of all the uninformed hardcore Obama supporters that came out of the woodwork for this election. Like Cab said, barely any of them could even say anything other than "Change".

I actually agree with Obama on some of the issues, which is what makes it hard to find a candidate that shares my ideals. I am either a liberal republican or a conservative democrat; take your pick. But you have to admit all this talk about "Change" was stupid. What is change...Bush wasn't running again, so it would have been change either way. It was just a catch word that for some reason people loved (even though none of them could tell you what that meant other than that we need to get rid of Bush).

To quote someone from another forum I frequent..."Hope and Change.... A meaningless slogan for mindless lemmings."

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Andy 90 325i
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To quote someone from another forum I frequent..."Hope and Change.... A meaningless slogan for mindless lemmings."

Now there is an intelligent statement
I didn't realize the constitution had an amendment that says only the most informed and most intelligent should vote.
My experience is that the folks making these kinds of statements are usually not much more informed nor intelligent then the ones they mock

When you have to resort to insults like this to win an argument; it's already lost.

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Andy 90 325i
Wow, didn't expect such an ugly poor reception. I don't hate Obama; in fact I voted for him to be our senator. I didn't vote for him for President, because I don't agree with some of the things he wants to do, and he has very little experience, but he is now my President, so we'll see how much of what he wants to do will get done. I really felt like the entire election was a choice between lesser evils personally, but back to the video. I think you really had to be here in the US to see these people like Cab and I did everyday to fully appreciate the humor. It isn't even bashing Obama, it is just making fun of all the uninformed hardcore Obama supporters that came out of the woodwork for this election. Like Cab said, barely any of them could even say anything other than "Change".

I actually agree with Obama on some of the issues, which is what makes it hard to find a candidate that shares my ideals. I am either a liberal republican or a conservative democrat; take your pick. But you have to admit all this talk about "Change" was stupid. What is change...Bush wasn't running again, so it would have been change either way. It was just a catch word that for some reason people loved (even though none of them could tell you what that meant other than that we need to get rid of Bush).

To quote someone from another forum I frequent..."Hope and Change.... A meaningless slogan for mindless lemmings."

If you think McCain would have been anything but a continuance of the bush white house I think that is wrong, Obama was the only bright spot that I saw.

Hope and Change sounded pretty good to me after eight years of thugs and mindless goings on. How many years will it take to right those wrongs!

This was probably a bad thread to start here, sorry-rick out

Free speech is about to be changed:

"But author Brad O'Leary examined Obama's legal and organizational
attempts to silence media detractors
[www.worldnetdaily.com]
during the presidential race and came to a different conclusion."
"Barack Obama has shown a stunning lack of tolerance for free speech
throughout the course of [his] campaign," said O'Leary. "His presidency,
combined with supermajorities for Democrats in Congress, would almost
certainly bring back the so-called 'Fairness Doctrine' and allow the
Democrats to snuff out any broadcasters with whom they disagree."

Change can be not so good sometimes.

Bob in Everett

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Archeo-peteriX
I can't open your eyes if you don't want to see

Peter, I respect you as much or more than most people I've met, and we've never even officially "met." But are you serious with this crap? Disagree with my politics all you want, but this particular thread has to do with humor and the vast hypocrisy I've noticed among my friends, family, media, and fellow countrymen over the last several months in the fact that they have had no problem over the years ridiculing our former president, but now that it's "their" guy, suddenly things aren't quite so funny. Why do you not see that?

I apologize for the tone of my post, I was thinking about it last night and realized that it probably came off as an attack on you when it was in no way intended like that. Your response to the video clip merely reminded me of something that has been on my mind lately.

It also occurred to me that my comment that I disagree with Obama's ideology is not really correct. He has a million wonderful ideas, and I think his heart is in the right place more often than not. It's his politics with which I disagree. I think many of the things he stands for are great and have a lot of merit, I just personally disagree that it's the place of government to implement them.

Let's clean up the rat's nest that is the political system in this country, make it lean and efficient, and allow private businesses, organizations, and individuals to work to improve their community. It's just not the place to be spending tax money, IM(not so)HO. However, I'm far too realistic to expect that anything like that actually has a snowball's chance of getting done. So I guess I'll continue to be one of the lone voices crying in the wilderness, waiting to understand why all this stuff going on is actually good for me, my children, or my country.

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT

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rkj
Cab, Did bush really win the first election?, I seem to remember gore getting more votes and there was some trickery down in Florida somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that first election was a bit fixed.

Yes, he won the election. By the rules set forth in the Constitution, he properly received enough electoral votes to win the presidency. Gore received about a half a million more popular votes than Bush, but like it or not, that is not the way presidents are elected in this country. There is, every so often, talk about changing the Electoral College system, but unless and until it is changed, it is theoretically possible to win the presidency by simply winning the 11 largest states. You could win those states by one vote each and lose the other 39 states by 100% and get crushed in the popular vote, but win the election. I didn't make the system, if I had my way I would change it to something that more closely aligns with the popular vote, but that's not the way the system works as presently constituted.

As for trickery, the votes in Florida were challenged, there was quite a bit of controversy and certainly an appearance of impropriety due to Bush's brother being governor of that state, but again, according to the legal procedure that was followed, the US Supreme Court ruled that the procedure Florida was using during the recount was unconstitutional, and that the state had to stop the recounts and certify the votes. Clearly there were (and probably still are) voting procedures that are not the best way to do things. So let's change them for the future! The problem with that is that the vote is so rarely so close that it has any statistical chance of being wrong, so there's not a strong case to be made for all the money and time that would have to be spent in changing the system. View that as right or wrong in your opinion, but that's the way our system works. So yes, by the rules and laws of the land, Bush did properly win the 2000 election.

Read here if you want a refresher course.

And remember, he somewhat easily won re-election in 2004, even after the US had watched him in action for 4 years. He won almost 51% of the popular vote, and over 53% of the electoral vote. There was no controversy whatsoever with his re-election. It's not like he won a disputed election once and then the next time was voted out. The American public, for whatever reason, was happy enough with him and the job he did to easily re-elect him.

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Considering, what a pile of shit that was handed him, everything I've heard so far has been pretty fair and sensible coming out of Obamas mouth.

For the most part, I don't disagree. He's in charge of a country with some very serious issues in front of it. I don't envy him that job, and I do think he's very smart and hopefully will prove capable of the faith the American people put in him. There are a few things he's done already that bother me, but that's to be expected and would have been the case no matter who was the new boss.

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It seems that you think bush was unfairly treated

No, not really. I agree that he made a lot of very bad decisions and huge mistakes. I agree that he appears to be not the smartest guy in the world, especially compared to Obama. He certainly is not gifted at all in communication.

What I have a problem with is all the people who spent the last 8 years feeling totally fine to bash Bush at every turn, but now that the guy they support is in office, if you make the slightest criticism, they jump all over you. That's hypocrisy at its finest. That's all I'm saying.

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT

No problem Cab. I know you are about personal attacks.

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Archeo-peteriX
No problem Cab. I know you are about personal attacks.

I'm disappointed, Peter. I thought after 5+ years that I had a pretty good idea of your personality. I didn't realize that you would be so intolerant when someone's views differed from your own. But, lesson learned, I will agree to disagree with you on this and in the future I shall do my best to refrain from engaging in a discussion about anything controversial.

Respectfully (and I mean that),

Cab
1990 325i(s)
2004 325XiT

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Archeo-peteriX
No problem Cab. I know you are about personal attacks.

I strongly suspect that Peter actually had intended to write, "I know you are not about personal attacks."

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Cab Treadway

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Archeo-peteriX
No problem Cab. I know you are about personal attacks.

I'm disappointed, Peter. I thought after 5+ years that I had a pretty good idea of your personality. I didn't realize that you would be so intolerant when someone's views differed from your own. But, lesson learned, I will agree to disagree with you on this and in the future I shall do my best to refrain from engaging in a discussion about anything controversial.

Respectfully (and I mean that),

It's not about intolerance or points of view. It's about fairness.
Bush, Clinton etal earned their knocks and political satires; as they should have.

Obama is the new guy and hasn't really even had an opportunity to make any mistakes; yet he is already being chastised for things he hasn't done and for things he has done that we won't know the results for a long time. To much of what he may or may not do is being projected without any foundation

At least wait until he's messed up...then he's fair game. When he goofs up; I'll be right there laughing with the rest of you at the cartoons, posters and Onion satires.

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Ferdinand

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Archeo-peteriX
No problem Cab. I know you are about personal attacks.

I strongly suspect that Peter actually had intended to write, "I know you are not about personal attacks."

Thank you Ferd and my apologies to Cab; that is exactly what I had meant to write :o
I feel so dumb

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Archeo-peteriX

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Andy 90 325i
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To quote someone from another forum I frequent..."Hope and Change.... A meaningless slogan for mindless lemmings."

Now there is an intelligent statement
I didn't realize the constitution had an amendment that says only the most informed and most intelligent should vote.
My experience is that the folks making these kinds of statements are usually not much more informed nor intelligent then the ones they mock

When you have to resort to insults like this to win an argument; it's already lost.

I'd like to stay out of most of this discussion, but I must say a couple things.

Peter, you are being very defensive for no reason. No one is attacking you at all. No one is trying to "win" and argument. Everyone in here has been trying to reassure you saying that they respectfully disagree with you, yet you take it as if there is no acceptable alternative to the way you think about something. Your seeming intolerance for other people's viewpoints is beginning to look somewhat hypocritical, which is not helping your case, assuming you want people to take you seriously when you present an argument representing your thoughts or beliefs on an issue.

As for the Onion video, I think it is hilarious. People didn't just make fun of Bush because he was dumb or made bad decisions, they made fun of him because he was the president of the US. It just so happened that picking on his stupidity was the easiest thing to do. Now it is Obama's turn to be made fun of, regardless of the amount of experience he has had. Making fun of famous people (and perhaps even their supporters) is a very old tradition, and is not a big deal. People aren't picking on Obama, they are just doing their job. And, although I voted for Obama (it took a lot of people just to get me to vote in the first place), I know where they are getting that stuff from the video. Having been on a college campus every day for the last 3.5 years, I've had to deal with people trying to shove Obama down my throat, whether I liked it or not. It got to the point where I wouldn't want to talk about him with anyone. I had several friends that were crazy about him, yet didn't really know very much about him at all. Now, the video suggests that people who supported Obama fervently now have nothing to live for. Obviously a funny exaggeration. The thing I noticed more was how people would support Obama just for the fact of him being different, being a change, etc. That is what bothered me. The overt, blind praise for him bothered me. As I mentioned before, it almost drove me to not vote at all, because I was so sick of it.

Now, I don't agree with everything Obama thinks or says, but I agree with most of it, and for me, social issues are more important than fiscal issues. It also seemed that he would be more active in office and represent our country better than McCain. That is how I made my decision. In 4 years, I will probably make my decision in another way. That is the beauty of voting in this country. Everyone (over 18) has a chance to influence their country significantly by creating their own criteria for who they want to be president, whether their criteria is good or bad, simple or complicated.

-Daniel

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daniel

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Archeo-peteriX

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Andy 90 325i
...

To quote someone from another forum I frequent..."Hope and Change.... A meaningless slogan for mindless lemmings."

Now there is an intelligent statement
I didn't realize the constitution had an amendment that says only the most informed and most intelligent should vote.
My experience is that the folks making these kinds of statements are usually not much more informed nor intelligent then the ones they mock

When you have to resort to insults like this to win an argument; it's already lost.

I'd like to stay out of most of this discussion, but I must say a couple things.

Peter, you are being very defensive for no reason. No one is attacking you at all. No one is trying to "win" and argument. Everyone in here has been trying to reassure you saying that they respectfully disagree with you, yet you take it as if there is no acceptable alternative to the way you think about something. Your seeming intolerance for other people's viewpoints is beginning to look somewhat hypocritical, which is not helping your case, assuming you want people to take you seriously when you present an argument representing your thoughts or beliefs on an issue.

As for the Onion video, I think it is hilarious. People didn't just make fun of Bush because he was dumb or made bad decisions, they made fun of him because he was the president of the US. It just so happened that picking on his stupidity was the easiest thing to do. Now it is Obama's turn to be made fun of, regardless of the amount of experience he has had. Making fun of famous people (and perhaps even their supporters) is a very old tradition, and is not a big deal. People aren't picking on Obama, they are just doing their job. And, although I voted for Obama (it took a lot of people just to get me to vote in the first place), I know where they are getting that stuff from the video. Having been on a college campus every day for the last 3.5 years, I've had to deal with people trying to shove Obama down my throat, whether I liked it or not. It got to the point where I wouldn't want to talk about him with anyone. I had several friends that were crazy about him, yet didn't really know very much about him at all. Now, the video suggests that people who supported Obama fervently now have nothing to live for. Obviously a funny exaggeration. The thing I noticed more was how people would support Obama just for the fact of him being different, being a change, etc. That is what bothered me. The overt, blind praise for him bothered me. As I mentioned before, it almost drove me to not vote at all, because I was so sick of it.

Now, I don't agree with everything Obama thinks or says, but I agree with most of it, and for me, social issues are more important than fiscal issues. It also seemed that he would be more active in office and represent our country better than McCain. That is how I made my decision. In 4 years, I will probably make my decision in another way. That is the beauty of voting in this country. Everyone (over 18) has a chance to influence their country significantly by creating their own criteria for who they want to be president, whether their criteria is good or bad, simple or complicated.

-Daniel

Good grief...more of the same

Over and out.

My vote is to not discuss politics or religion on this forum. Sooner or later someone always gets butt hurt and feels bad. What is the old saying..."a person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still!" The thing that brings us all together here is our love for a German made car. Another famous quote from the LA riots not so long ago..."Why can't we all just get along?" Life is tough enough without feeling the need to explain one's opinion about certain things. The reason we all form and have different opinions is because we all have different experiences in life that dictate how we interpret what is thrown at us. I don't even think that most of us can understand half of the reasons we are the way we are. People that lived through the great depression were taught that you never throw anything away and were very frugal people. Their behavior was derived from starving half to death and having nothing. You could never convince a person having lived through that to splurge on something that was not absolutely necessary, even if they would be better off to have it. That is why we can't judge someone unless we have walked a mile in their shoes...that is the only way to understand another person.

That being said, I think you guys are great and are some of the best people around even though I have never met you or even seen a picture of you. Isn't the Internet great...it can bring a group of all sorts together and because we all have a common interest we enjoy each other for that very reason. The other stuff is just a bonus. I consider you guys my friends so lets keep it that way! I know you are all saying right now that this guy must be a real loser if the only friends he has are on the Internet...well that is not the case so put the thought and the jokes out of your minds right now. Let's talk about something else

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wodcutr
famous quote from the LA riots not so long ago..."Why can't we all just get along?"

Also, the new logo on LA police cars: "We treat you like a King."

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Ferdinand

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wodcutr
famous quote from the LA riots not so long ago..."Why can't we all just get along?"

Also, the new logo on LA police cars: "We treat you like a King."

I for one am glad to not live any where near LA for that very reason, although Californians do take very good care of there BMW's!

I think some time ago I had expressed, specifically to Cab, that there are three subjects that are not discussed in polite society - religion, politics and women. I stand by that. The arguments are always emotional and usually sterile and lead nowhere, except, perhaps, to hurt feelings.

Now, let's get back to the discussion of the 'mythical' turbo lag in diesels being due to the turbo and not to the inherent lag present in large diesels, turbo or not.

Salut, Bob P.

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wodcutr
I know you are all saying right now that this guy must be a real loser if the only friends he has are on the Internet...well that is not the case so put the thought and the jokes out of your minds right now.

Nah. I know we all have pretty normal lives outside of our own respective internet communities. I wish there was a cost effective way to bring everyone together at some point.