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Massive oil lead cured.

Posted by Bob in Everett 
October 27, 2010 08:46PM
After two days under my beloved cabrio, I have declared victory on the oil puddles. My oil pan gasket was leaking massive quantities of oil everywhere I parked. The old gasket was damaged when I put it on a couple years ago and it got worse lately so had to do something. Went for a drive today and took advantage of the sunny weather with a top down trip of almost 200 miles. Ear plugs help with the wind and road noise and keep me from getting so fatigued by the wind. Really enjoyed the day and missed all the speed traps too.

The pan is difficult to remove and re-install. Also the oil pump will take some time to fill with oil and build pressure so I recommend taking out the fuel pump relay and cranking until the pressure light goes out. Oh, don't forget to connect the ground on the pan as the starter will not have much power through the other ground paths available and smoke will come out of some wire bundles that I hope are not damaged.

Bob in Everett
October 28, 2010 01:32PM
Quote
Bob in Everett
After two days under my beloved cabrio, I have declared victory on the oil puddles. My oil pan gasket was leaking massive quantities of oil everywhere I parked. The old gasket was damaged when I put it on a couple years ago and it got worse lately so had to do something. Went for a drive today and took advantage of the sunny weather with a top down trip of almost 200 miles. Ear plugs help with the wind and road noise and keep me from getting so fatigued by the wind. Really enjoyed the day and missed all the speed traps too.

The pan is difficult to remove and re-install. Also the oil pump will take some time to fill with oil and build pressure so I recommend taking out the fuel pump relay and cranking until the pressure light goes out. Oh, don't forget to connect the ground on the pan as the starter will not have much power through the other ground paths available and smoke will come out of some wire bundles that I hope are not damaged.

Bob in Everett

What the heck... Sunny days, seriously? A little further south we have seen the sun in a week or two. Perhaps you are telling this story as if it's current, when really it took place 2 weeks ago during that beautiful and sunny week of NW bliss?

Oh, and glad you got the Oil pan fixed! smiling smiley
Between a little coolant leak recently, and the clutch cylinders going south, the bottom of my car is an oily messy wreck. I should go clean it all off to make sure nothing else has cropped up...but we aren't getting sunny days down here smiling smiley

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1989 - E30 - M20 - Manual. Approximately 270,000 miles
2000 - E46 - M52TUB28 - Manual. Approximately 110,000 miles

October 28, 2010 02:33PM
Good work! My iX has leaked oil since I've owned it, about 1/2 quart every couple thousand miles. I have never had the dedication to determine exactly where it's leaking. It's probably either the oil pan gasket or the rear main seal, and I don't know which would be worse to replace. So I just keep putting in 1/2 quart every couple thousand miles. I think I'm waiting till I have to drop the transmission to do the clutch anyway, but so far the clutch shows no signs of dying. (Currently my twin 16-year old sons are learning to drive a manual on it, so maybe they can fix that for me. tongue sticking out smiley)

__________
Dave
'91 325iX
October 28, 2010 03:23PM
The oil down there prevents the water from getting to the metal, and thus from rusting. Just don't let get tons of dust settle on there!
October 28, 2010 03:31PM
Quote
Bob in Everett
After two days under my beloved cabrio, I have declared victory on the oil puddles. My oil pan gasket was leaking...
Congratulations smileys with beer

I did that job once on my old 86 325e. There was a lot of swearing involved. Definitely not a job I'd ever care to repeat.
October 28, 2010 11:41PM
It is true, the sun did shine on Wednesday. No puddles under my car overnight either. Yes, it is a difficult job and that is why I put it off way too long.

Bob in Everett
October 28, 2010 11:48PM
Drove south almost to Olympia and return to Everett by 3:00pm. Spent the rest of the afternoon washing two cars and cleaning wheels. Speedometer turned over 200,400 miles and the trip odometer read 600.0 at the same time.

No puddles under my car overnight either. Yes, it is a difficult job and that is why I put it off way too long. Gratifying to have accomplished it though. Oil pressure still seems to come up slow. Takes a few seconds. I should time it to know exactly. Would 200,000 miles wear out an oil pump?
Bob in Everett
rkj
October 29, 2010 09:26PM
Quote
Bob in Everett
Drove south almost to Olympia and return to Everett by 3:00pm. Spent the rest of the afternoon washing two cars and cleaning wheels. Speedometer turned over 200,400 miles and the trip odometer read 600.0 at the same time.

No puddles under my car overnight either. Yes, it is a difficult job and that is why I put it off way too long. Gratifying to have accomplished it though. Oil pressure still seems to come up slow. Takes a few seconds. I should time it to know exactly. Would 200,000 miles wear out an oil pump?
Bob in Everett

I hate to say this Bob, but the late oil pressure might be a leaking pick-up tube gasket. Ever since this happened to me I always put gasket sealer on that gasket!

Rick
October 30, 2010 12:13AM
Rick,
Thanks for the comment but I only removed the pump, did not disassemble it. Is there supposed to be a gasket where the pump bolts to the engine? Realoem does not show a gasket there. I was concerned about this myself and did put some sealant on the engine surface before I bolted the pump in place.

Since the pump is submerged, not sure how the pickup tube would be leaking? If I restart the car shortly after shutting it off, the pressure comes up instantly. Only after setting a while, it takes about 4-5 seconds for the light to go out. My other E-30 that has a lot less miles on it gets pressure within about 1 or 2 seconds. I am wondering if the filter anti-drain back valve is not working. May change the filter just to see if it makes any difference.

Bob in Everett
rkj
October 30, 2010 10:39AM
Quote
Bob in Everett
Rick,
Thanks for the comment but I only removed the pump, did not disassemble it. Is there supposed to be a gasket where the pump bolts to the engine? Realoem does not show a gasket there. I was concerned about this myself and did put some sealant on the engine surface before I bolted the pump in place.

Since the pump is submerged, not sure how the pickup tube would be leaking? If I restart the car shortly after shutting it off, the pressure comes up instantly. Only after setting a while, it takes about 4-5 seconds for the light to go out. My other E-30 that has a lot less miles on it gets pressure within about 1 or 2 seconds. I am wondering if the filter anti-drain back valve is not working. May change the filter just to see if it makes any difference.

Bob in Everett

Actually Bob, I think you're right; the pick-up is part of the pump on these cars, right? I think the pump should take a seal/gasket of some kind, just seems right. Way back, in another lifetime I installed a large oil pan on my race motor (1964 Ford 427, Daytona block) and the pick-up had to be lengthened too. I didn't see it at first but welding the pick-up I warped the flange on the pick-up so the gasket did not seal, of course a simple flattening of the flange's sealing surface with a flat file fixed it but that lesson stays with me still eye rolling smiley

The oil filter is a good first check.... It wasn't doing this before you pulled the pan, right?

Rick
October 30, 2010 01:42PM
Quote
Bob in Everett
Only after setting a while, it takes about 4-5 seconds for the light to go out. My other E-30 that has a lot less miles on it gets pressure within about 1 or 2 seconds.


I solve this little problem by making sure my car is always in a state that requires aproximayely 3 seconds to start. Light is always off by the time the first cylinder fires!

I should use this little tid bit as evidense against Ferdinands assertion that problems don't fix themselves... grinning smiley

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1989 - E30 - M20 - Manual. Approximately 270,000 miles
2000 - E46 - M52TUB28 - Manual. Approximately 110,000 miles

October 30, 2010 10:10PM
The slow oil pressure was there before I changed the gasket on the pan. I began noticing it after I changed the filter last time I guess. Part of the problem is that my car was out of commission most of the summer with a dented rear corner and it took until end of August to have it fixed. My memory of what it was doing back in May is really foggy. When I got it out of the shop it was very low on oil due to the leaky pan gasket so that got me paying attention.

Bob in Everett
rkj
November 01, 2010 06:40PM
Quote
Bob in Everett
The slow oil pressure was there before I changed the gasket on the pan. I began noticing it after I changed the filter last time I guess. Part of the problem is that my car was out of commission most of the summer with a dented rear corner and it took until end of August to have it fixed. My memory of what it was doing back in May is really foggy. When I got it out of the shop it was very low on oil due to the leaky pan gasket so that got me paying attention.

Bob in Everett

Well, hopefully the previous condition will be a good thing and a new filter will cure it. I've been looking at mine and it goes right off.

Hey Bob, what state is Everett in please (west coast I'm thinking)

Rick
November 01, 2010 10:50PM
Everett is the one just North of Seattle, pretty close to the West coast. Some call it the left coast.

Bob in Everett
rkj
November 06, 2010 04:00PM
Quote
Bob in Everett
Everett is the one just North of Seattle, pretty close to the West coast. Some call it the left coast.

Bob in Everett

Thanks Bob, I thought that's where you were at. Cheers, Rick thumbs up
January 13, 2011 09:42PM
Quote
Bob in Everett
Rick,
Thanks for the comment but I only removed the pump, did not disassemble it. Is there supposed to be a gasket where the pump bolts to the engine? Realoem does not show a gasket there. I was concerned about this myself and did put some sealant on the engine surface before I bolted the pump in place.

Since the pump is submerged, not sure how the pickup tube would be leaking? If I restart the car shortly after shutting it off, the pressure comes up instantly. Only after setting a while, it takes about 4-5 seconds for the light to go out. My other E-30 that has a lot less miles on it gets pressure within about 1 or 2 seconds. I am wondering if the filter anti-drain back valve is not working. May change the filter just to see if it makes any difference.

Bob in Everett

I finally got my oil filter changed. Well, I changed the oil too. The oil pressure now comes up in less than two seconds. I looked at the old filter and it has the anti-drain-back valve but it must have failed in some way. I should inspect it further. Sure hope I have not damaged my engine with the frequent operation on start up with slow oil pressure.

Bob in Everett
February 08, 2011 10:06PM
So I am faced with a leaking oil pan gasket on my eta. I heard it can be done without removing the pan. As I will also be changing the steering rack and I would like to do a quasi bottom end insection I will be supporting the engine and removing the front suspension and cross-member. I know this sounds nuts but, with all that removed I can also check insect and clean many underside areas on the old girl. With 400 000 kms fast approaching I wanna do it right and only once so any advice, tips or jeers and taunts are welcome. Wish me luck, hoping to do this soon but, the weather is less than perfect so will be waiting a bit longer. Cheers, Steve.
Ps I have a few photos I will want to add at some point. How do I do that?
February 08, 2011 10:25PM
Hi Steve, not sure about weather you can stop the oil pan leak without removing the pan, if that is what you meant, I have never done it, but I would remove the pan, get in there, clean those surfaces and put in a new gasket, then you know it is new.
With all the work that you are going to be doing down there anyway, it is not that much extra at all, and as you say, you want to do it right, so you can forget about it.
Once the whole front sub frame is out, it will be easy to pull the pan, should take a few minutes.

Set yourself up an account at one of the image hosting sites like photobucket, upload your pics there, then just copy and paste the
rkj
February 09, 2011 07:49AM
Quote
blacke30
So I am faced with a leaking oil pan gasket on my eta. I heard it can be done without removing the pan. As I will also be changing the steering rack and I would like to do a quasi bottom end insection I will be supporting the engine and removing the front suspension and cross-member. I know this sounds nuts but, with all that removed I can also check insect and clean many underside areas on the old girl. With 400 000 kms fast approaching I wanna do it right and only once so any advice, tips or jeers and taunts are welcome. Wish me luck, hoping to do this soon but, the weather is less than perfect so will be waiting a bit longer. Cheers, Steve.
Ps I have a few photos I will want to add at some point. How do I do that?

Hey Steve

I've done the oil pan thing a few times and pulling the cross member down might be more of a hassle than you think. You can support the motor (it has to be raised) with sockets or shims under the mounts and then snake the pan out after you drop the pump and pick-up. It's a closely spaced job but very doable if you're careful and relaxed.

I don't exactly know what you mean about a quasi inspection but if the motor is sound (eta's go forever) best leave sleeping dogs snoozing.... If cleaning things is a goal, you'd be better off doing that with the pan on and the bottom sealed up. In any event you should start your own thread and we'll walk you through the process what ever way you choose to go.

Pictures, I'm kind of a rookie when it comes to all that, maybe some of the guys will chime in and help you out. I do know we all love um so shoot away and welcome aboard. I own three Eta's and I love them :heart:

Cheers, Rick



perseverance furthers
February 09, 2011 10:24AM
Quote
blacke30
So I am faced with a leaking oil pan gasket on my eta. I heard it can be done without removing the pan. ... I will be supporting the engine and removing the front suspension and cross-member...
Changing the oil pan gasket requires removal of the oil pan, obviously. The issue is that you can only lift the engine so far, and that leaves very little room between the bottom of the engine and the top of the cross-member to slide the oil pan out. The oil pump hangs down into the bottom of the pan and will prevent you from pulling the oil pan out. So you have to unbolt the oil pump and let it fall into the pan, pulling both out together. Putting it back into place later though, that's a bugger.

If you first remove the crossmember then you'll have loads of room and the oil pan is easy after that. But dropping the crossmember is not necessarily easy, especially after 400,000km.
rkj
February 09, 2011 02:57PM
Quote
Ferdinand
Quote
blacke30
So I am faced with a leaking oil pan gasket on my eta. I heard it can be done without removing the pan. ... I will be supporting the engine and removing the front suspension and cross-member...
Changing the oil pan gasket requires removal of the oil pan, obviously. The issue is that you can only lift the engine so far, and that leaves very little room between the bottom of the engine and the top of the cross-member to slide the oil pan out. The oil pump hangs down into the bottom of the pan and will prevent you from pulling the oil pan out. So you have to unbolt the oil pump and let it fall into the pan, pulling both out together. Putting it back into place later though, that's a bugger.

If you first remove the crossmember then you'll have loads of room and the oil pan is easy after that. But dropping the crossmember is not necessarily easy, especially after 400,000km.

Also, as the pan comes forward you have to turn the motor through so the crank throws miss the rear of the pan. All fun stuff.
February 09, 2011 10:41PM
I have removed front suspensions this way a few times. As follows, support engine with cross bar I have one designed for this purpose, Disconnect coupling for steering rack. Remove mount bolts from rear wishbone brackets (lollipops) remove crossmember bolts (they all come loose I checked) remove top nuts on struts. Raise car up leaving suspension and cross-member on the work table under car. If no access to hoist susp etc is left on the ground. If you are removing engine and trans all hoses wiring exhaust etc must be disconnected. As fa as my inspection is concerned I will be checking for side play at rod big ends and generally looking around. Nothing will be disconnected. Cleaning will be done after resealing the engine. Do you guys know of a particularly good pan gasket I have only come accross the cork type which of course worked for 390,000kms and only leaks now cause a couple of the bolts were loose.
February 10, 2011 12:34AM
I have changed mine twice now and the second time was because I did not do it right the first time. I allowed the gasket to get out of proper location as the pan went into place. The gasket was slightly out of place and prying it back with a screw drive through the bolt holes was not as successful as I had thought at the time. This time I used some small tie wraps through the bolt holes at each corner and a couple of other places to hold it in place until I could get a few bolts started. Be careful where you put the tie wraps as snipping them off is not practical at some locations.

Since you are planning to take the rack off anyway, that is a good time to change the gasket. It is what is most noticeably in the way. Also, cork gaskets must be torqued to the proper torque and retorqued to the same torque about an hour later. I also recommend putting some gasket sealant on each side of the cork.

Bob in Everett
February 20, 2011 12:24PM
My M10 was rebuilt by a very good local shop and Keaven was nice enough to show me the proper ways to seal it up, problem is I can't remember what he used. I will just have to reread those old Hot Vw mags, if you can seal an aircooled flat 4 you can seal anything.
February 22, 2011 12:12AM
Do bears live in the woods?
Is the Pope Catholic?

etc,
I had several VWs over the years. Mostly the valve push rod tubes were chronic leakers.

Bob in Everett
February 26, 2011 06:28AM
Oddly enough P'tubes was the only place mine didn't leak. I will be pulling the motor to reseal now as the chassis is toast. C'est la vie.
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